The armed forces.

i have witnessed people shouting at soldiers and its usually those kind of people who go in the streets trying to make you sign a piece of paper saying we are against the war and usually they are all over 20...

All of the youth in my area have respect for the Army esp as the main bulk of folkestones population is in the army.

I find this news disgusting and i am usually filled with joy and pride when i see our boys in the uniforms. Being in the army is something you should be proud of not ashamed of!
 
badbob said:
The Iraqi's have every right to attack soldiers occupying there country. As long as they don't kill civilians on either side.
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fine in theory..except in iraq they target civilians directly ahead of armed forces

theres tens of thousands of civilians been killed by these people 'fighting the occupiers' compared to the few thousand soldiers killed


the whole idea of an army is that they follow orders...if we left it up to them to decide whent they did or didnt want to fight it would be worse than useless, meaning that when we did actually need them theres no discipline and no fighting spirit
 
I was in the army and served in Iraq 1990-91 and also Bosnia in 1994. During my time in the Army i was quite happy wearing my uniform around town however the IRA soon put a stop to that. Only retarded scrotes would hurl abuse at servicemen and women - as soldiers we do a damn hard job and ask nothing in return but a little bit of respect for what we do. Lets not forget a soldier is not someone who decides that they will go to another country and fight they are told to go and do that by the government. Lets not forget we need an Army, Navy and Air Force. Lets not abuse people who choose to serve their county !
 
Mechanisms, people. We have mechanisms in this society that allow us diminished responsibility. I don't respect military personnel, I respect their leaders, or don't respect them if I don't believe in them. Why?

Because the control of the system is top down, and thus diminished responsibility is used to "guilt-free" those at the bottom. "Shoot this civilian? I know it's wrong, everyone knows it's wrong, but I got an order to do it so I do it." I don't respect that. I don't respect mindless automatons, no matter how well trained they are. The army is a social mechanism and the people in control are the people who make or break it. And who are in control?

Military leaders? Or politicians? Who has the final say? Who's shoulders do the millions of deaths over hundreds of years rest on? Who's ego is fuelling the current conflict? Who's vested interests are being nurtured by another 10 billion pounds being spent on weapon X?

As soon as you enter the armed forces, its like you are given a holy writ, a state sanctioned duty that is untouchable. Why do the millitary have their own court system, ours not capable of handling the atrocities committed in our names? Most people would sweep "military information" under the "official secrets act" type rug, but that rug does nothing but serve those people it concerns, not ourselves, who pay for them to continously wage random wars or make judgements on our behalf without us ever being consulted/informed.

I wouldn't harass a soldier, but I'd pity him. I'd wonder if he really knew what he was fighting for, what he would die for. Whether he had any idea that actually, none of his superiors even knew what they were fighting for/dying for. The military is a very scary form of totalitarianism, and it is effective.

What really sickens me, is when I see inside videos of people attacking insurgents/the enemy and hearing the joy that the soldiers get...
 
Originally Posted by badbob
And you know for sure there isn't a ruling that every soldier must abide to? I hope someone will post some evidence, as I'm not sure of the exact details. But I do know there is something laid out...for example the rules of surrender...you don't gun them down once they surrender. Same for not killing unarmed civvies.
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The Rules of engagement change depending on the threat, what you are thinking of are 'Values and Standards' these are a series of films and lectures that every soldier must see each year. The rules of engagement in Iraq for instance changed during the PWRR tour of Al Amara when Cimic House came under sustained attack for several days. Under the original rules, if an insurgent was about to fire an RPG he was a legitimate target but once fired he could no longer be engaged as the imminent threat had passed. The later rules of engagment meant that as the insurgent had commited and act of war (and i cant remember the exact terminology) by firing he could be engaged irrespective of his subsiquent actions (unless believed to be surrendering or no longer a threat due to injurt).
 
Shoseki said:
What really sickens me, is when I see inside videos of people attacking insurgents/the enemy and hearing the joy that the soldiers get...
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I understand that there are some sick individuals within the forces as they're bound to slip through, however many are simply glad to be using their training. The only times I've seen soldiers soldiers being joyous in situations like that during battle is when they get the sheer relief that they're no longer pinned down by gunfire.
 
efanZ said:
I understand that there are some sick individuals within the forces as they're bound to slip through, however many are simply glad to be using their training. The only times I've seen soldiers soldiers being joyous in situations like that during battle is when they get the sheer relief that they're no longer pinned down by gunfire.
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I remember watching a documentary about the beach landings at Normandy, they reckon that something like 98% of the bullets fire that day weren't fired *at* people because there is a basic human instinct that killing another human being is wrong, is actually counter-intuitive. 98% of the people either side were unable to look down the barrel of the gun and fire accurately at another human.

The 2% of people left were split into two groups. 1% were the "super human" people they term "heroes" who are able to do what is "needed" to be done in order to survive, no matter what the consequences. But an equal 1% were sociopaths who enjoyed killing and were perfectly happy to gun down their opponents.

Due to modern military training, they can greatly reduce the natural instincts that humans have to another human, but thats what they have to do - turn their men Feral, inhuman. They have to breach human instinct, break 100,000 years of evolution. These are the requirements to be a good soldier. This is why Morale used to be one of the most important influences in battle, why they used guns instead of bows and arrows even though bows and arrows were far more effective for far longer, why for hundreds of years armies wore bright red uniforms etc.

My question is though... what are the %'s now? don't tell me that 97% went into the heroes' %...
 
Shoseki said:
Shoot this civilian? I know it's wrong, everyone knows it's wrong, but I got an order to do it so I do it." I don't respect that. I don't respect mindless automatons, no matter how well trained they are. The army is a social mechanism and the people in control are the people who make or break it.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Some of the best decisions have been made by soldiers who disobeyed orders they knew to be uninformed, misguided, or just downright stupid.

Hans Graf Von Sponeck (saved his men from a misguided order to advance, yet still held off the enemy until relief arrived); Dietrich Von Choltitz (refused to apply the Scorched Earth policy during his occupation of Paris); Erwin Rommel (refused to kill or deport Jews); Australian fighter pilots during Iraq war (disobeyed American commanders' orders to bomb 40 different targets which the Aussies knew to be incorrect).

To name a few.

A good soldier is one who knows when to disobey an order. The chain of command is there for a reason, but it does not provide abrogation of personal responsibility.
 
Evangelion said:
A good soldier is one who knows when to disobey an order. The chain of command is there for a reason, but it does not provide abrogation of personal responsibility.
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Those poor guys were playing an extremely dangerous game though. There isn't exactly a mechanism to encourage independance like that. The hierarchy is based on absolute control in order to strategically and logistically manage a very large and complex force.
 
Shoseki said:
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Do you seriously believe that the majority of soldiers are inhuman? I know plenty of people who were in the forces and every single one of them is as stable, caring and sensitive to human life as anyone that hasn't undergone military training.
 
efanZ said:
Do you seriously believe that the majority of soldiers are inhuman? I know plenty of people who were in the forces and every single one of them is as stable, caring and sensitive to human life as anyone that hasn't undergone military training.
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Define human/inhuman. I didn't say that it would turn them into complete sociopaths. You can't deny that military training indeed changes a person.

I don't know enough about it, but I would suspect that is one of the reason that ex-military struggle so much going back into normal society... have crises of conscious issues... really question what the point of everything is when their best friends are blown away in front of them...

I have only known a few ex-military, and they were undeniably good people. My grandfather is an ex tank instructor and I had a friend who was a squaddy in bosnia, saw his best mate literally shredded by a sniper right next to him. Both good people, very professional actually.

But my statement still stands.
 
Shoseki said:
Mechanisms, people. "Shoot this civilian? I know it's wrong, everyone knows it's wrong, but I got an order to do it so I do it." I don't respect that. I don't respect mindless automatons, no matter how well trained they are. The army is a social mechanism and the people in control are the people who make or break it. And who are in control?

..
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How i pity you believing that soldiers are a mindless order obeying robots...........what a shallow mind you have, Do you actually believe that a soldier would kill civillians just because they're told too. Order or not that amounts to murder ! Every job has its people in control and the people who carry out the work - just like your job (if you have one) Im pretty damn sure (just like soldiers) you would not do something you were asked that was illegal. Soldiers are not ROBOTS lets just get that straight shall we !
 
you would not do something you were asked that was illegal.
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Nowt to do with war, but yes I've seen employees doing stuff that was illegal, and instructed to do so by the managers (which they know also)
 
badbob said:
Nowt to do with war, but yes I've seen employees doing stuff that was illegal, and instructed to do so by the managers (which they know also)
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It's pretty obvious that he's referring to decent human beings, not describing every single person on the planet.
 
teulk said:
How i pity you believing that soldiers are a mindless order obeying robots...........what a shallow mind you have, Do you actually believe that a soldier would kill civillians just because they're told too. Order or not that amounts to murder ! Every job has its people in control and the people who carry out the work - just like your job (if you have one) Im pretty damn sure (just like soldiers) you would not do something you were asked that was illegal. Soldiers are not ROBOTS lets just get that straight shall we !
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In a total war situation, especially if you are in a country you are not familiar with, where their "uniforms" may not be green and they may hide amongst civilians, things are not so clear cut. What *is* clear cut, however, is that if you cross a commanding officer, there is an entire system in place to discipline you.

So chances are you will be put in some grey situations. And as a professional, you will get into the idea that this is your entire career you are putting on the line for what is essentially your personal judgement.

I don't buy it.

EDIT : And yes, if I was in a company that told me to do something illegal, hell I would **** them off, whistleblower, the works. And if they fired me they'd be up against a tribunal. No such openness in the military...

EDIT : Mind you, I am in software, so I merely make the tools, I don't make things happen... if my employers wanted to spam 80k people I would set up the system but they would have the system. They don't pay me for that responsibility, and on their head the ultimate responsibility lies.
 
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Shoseki said:
Define human/inhuman. I didn't say that it would turn them into complete sociopaths. You can't deny that military training indeed changes a person.

I don't know enough about it, but I would suspect that is one of the reason that ex-military struggle so much going back into normal society... have crises of conscious issues... really question what the point of everything is when their best friends are blown away in front of them...

I have only known a few ex-military, and they were undeniably good people. My grandfather is an ex tank instructor and I had a friend who was a squaddy in bosnia, saw his best mate literally shredded by a sniper right next to him. Both good people, very professional actually.

But my statement still stands.
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How can your statment still stand if you admittedley don't know enough about it?
 
badbob said:
Nowt to do with war, but yes I've seen employees doing stuff that was illegal, and instructed to do so by the managers (which they know also)
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So where does that leave you then - your witness to illegal doings, what excatly did you do about that then - report it to anyone ???
So does this make you guilt free ?????????
 
I have a mate who did his initial tour in Iraq and then quit the army once he got home so he didn't have to go back. I respect him for going and I also respect him for jacking in his career and following what he believed.

Nobody should have to take abuse on the street and not be able to walk around freely, whatever their occupation.
 
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teulk said:
So where does that leave you then - your witness to illegal doings, what excatly did you do about that then - report it to anyone ???
So does this make you guilt free ?????????
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I've gone up to the manager and told them "you can't do that" in more lavish terms. They don't like it and throw a fit...
 
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