Mondeo ST 220 / ST TDCI

[Fr0dders]

320d without a doubt, particularly early versions of that engine. 330d not a significant problem on the later revisions of that engine.

theres no point really debating the BMW. I just dont like them. You and all the BMW fans can bang on all day about how great they are, and how it doesnt matter that a 9k 330d is going to have moon mileage etc.. all you want

i am not spending 9k ish on a car that i dont like, and especially just to please the people on OcUK.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The gap will widen, if anything. Big capacity 6cyl E46s will plummet in value the older they get, with further pressure on residuals being brought to bear by the increased road tax. 330i about 24/25mpg in mixed conditions. 330d about 35/36mpg in mixed conditions. That's more than a 40% improvement. That's a lot.

I agree with your economy projections - they tally with my experience (E39 530d gets 30 town, 38 mixed, 45 on a run, E39 530i gets 20 town, 28ish mixed and 35-37 on a runa) but the residuals? I wouldnt think so - take a look at the value of a 97 328i v a 97 325TDS and if anything the 328i is now more sought after (Although I don't for one minute think the same thing will happen with the 330d). The gap wont widen, it'll stay at 15-20%, but 20% of £5k is less than 20% of £10k..

320d without a doubt, particularly early versions of that engine. 330d not a significant problem on the later revisions of that engine. If you know different, perhaps you could point to some information showing a significant proportion of 330s failing?

It's not significant but it can and does happen and must be at the back of your mind when you buy an x30d - its why there is a warranty kept up on the 530d yet not enough has gone wrong in the space of a year to justify one on the 530i.

 

[MarkDavis]

i am not spending 9k ish on a car that i dont like, and especially just to please the people on OcUK.

Of course not MrLOL - you buy the car that YOU want. I have no problems with that. The ST220 is good car, though the TDCI is known to have greater risk of injector/fuel pump problems at high mileages.

 

[MarkDavis]

take a look at the value of a 97 328i v a 97 325TDS and if anything the 328i is now more sought after

That's 'banger' economics. You're talking about cars which are two generations behind the current model, coming up to to a 'banger' price point and comparing a gem of an engine (328i) with a tractor engine (325TDS) which hardly a fair comparison. But if you were to drop £10k on 330i today, and the same on 330d, in 4 years time, the 330d will have held on to a significant highly proportion of that 10k than the 330i.

 

[[TW]Fox]

That's 'banger' economics. You're talking about cars which are two generations behind the current model, coming up to to a 'banger' price point and comparing a gem of an engine (328i) with a tractor engine (325TDS) which hardly a fair comparison. But if you were to drop £10k on 330i today, and the same on 330d, in 4 years time, the 330d will have held on to a significant highly proportion of that 10k than the 330i.

I'm not talking about dropping the same on each, I'm talking about dropping less on the 330i

 

[blueboy2001]

Shop around and you should be able to find an ST TDCi with Recaro's. There are also some with the standard seats with 8 way electric adjustment which are well worth having over the standard manual seats because you get far more adjustment on the base cushion.

I had the TDCi and was more than happy with it - with a remap to 188BHP it went well. I've driven a few ST220's over the years too and in a balls out race it's a fair whack quicker than the TDCi as standard, and the noise is lovely.

In the real world there is about 20mpg difference between them which means the TDCi uses almost half the fuel but also has the advantage of almost double the range which was quite important to me when I using mine for big miles. Servicing costs and tyres are more or less the same whichever you go for. The TDCi's do occasionally have issues with the injectors although the later cars don't fail straight off like the old ones used to - you get rough running and smoke from a cold start when they are on their way out so check carefully before buying. The other issue that affects both models is the rear bumpers dropping around the lights and at the sides which causes the lugs around the inside of the bootlid to crack and break. Ford changed the crash element part way through production and it didn't provide as much support for the bumper. On mine the lugs at the side cracked and it looked awful but I managed to get it replaced under warranty but Ford clamped down on it and now will only entertain claims inside 12 months. The fix is to remove the bumper and fit the foam blocks off the Zetec-S under the lights which cost about £60.

 

[MarkDavis]

I'm not talking about dropping the same on each, I'm talking about dropping less on the 330i

It still doesn't compete in financial terms even if the 330i was £8.5k, a £10k 330d will still represent better value for money over the same duration of ownership, due to the aforementioned fuel economy, insurance, road tax and residuals

The 330i is admittedly the better car (what petrol car isn't?) but in financial terms the 330d is the better proposition. Having said that, I wouldn't spend £10k on a diesel

 

[[TW]Fox]

I used to be able to argue about the road tax being meaningless. Thanks Alistair Darling

Although I think a 330i manual slips into the £300 a year bracket rather than the £440.

 

[Fr0dders]

I used to be able to argue about the road tax being meaningless. Thanks Alistair Darling

Although I think a 330i manual slips into the £300 a year bracket rather than the £440.

to be honest fox you're right. £200 extra or whatever isnt a lot per year. Its the fact that the ST TDCI appears to depreciate as much as the ST220 and as a result they are priced roughly the same.

This combined with double the fuel economy and much lower insurance makes the ST TDCI the car you'd have if you've got your beige trousers on

But part of me says ive got to own a nice car in my life at some point. Im a petrol head and my car history consists of a picasso and a 1.4 8v polo ffs!

 

[Scania]

That's 'banger' economics. You're talking about cars which are two generations behind the current model, coming up to to a 'banger' price point and comparing a gem of an engine (328i) with a tractor engine (325TDS) which hardly a fair comparison.

Ever driven an e36 325TDS? it was the Diesel engine that re-wrote the rule book if you look back in history.

Tractor engines are found in cars such as my Mondeo TD, the 325TDS is anything but tractor tech.

I was looking for one when I got my Mondeo, sadly, the 3 I found all sold prior to me seeing them.

 

[Demon]

I'm not talking about dropping the same on each, I'm talking about dropping less on the 330i

I may be wrong here, but if this is the usual buy the petrol cheaper and use the extra on fuel argument, then I've just knocked up a spread sheet to help look at the 'cost' of buying/fuel and depreciation over 3 years based on a Petrol/Diesel..

Bottom line, is, and I think you will agree, that even buying the cheaper petrol, (a 330i SE 2003 vs a 2003 330d se) that it's mileage dependant to which is financially more viable.. the break even point for this example, using glass's guide is you would need to do ~6000/year for the diesel to just be more viable then the Petrol..

At 8K miles/annum, the diesel will save you a whopping £230, at 15Kmiles per annum the diesel saves you £913 over 3 years..
I agree with you that if doing say 8K per year mileage, saving just £230 by going diesel is no where near enough to justify the difference between the 330i and 330d as 'cars'..

To the OP, using a 2005 05 ST220/ST TDCI as an example, using glass's guide, over 3 years at 8K Miles/annum the ST220 will cost ~£1344 more to own/run over 3 years.. £37/month..

 

[[TW]Fox]

But the arguements for the 330i are far more than just pure money - it's a nicer car to drive for a start and it's more enjoyable.

£37 a month to own a V6 petrol sports saloon over a diesel motorway car, sounds good to me, doesn't it sound good to you?

 

[Demon]

But the arguements for the 330i are far more than just pure money - it's a nicer car to drive for a start and it's more enjoyable.

£37 a month to own a V6 petrol sports saloon over a diesel motorway car, sounds good to me, doesn't it sound good to you?

It does.. I completely agree with you on this one..

I did say

I agree with you that if doing say 8K per year mileage, saving just £230 by going diesel is no where near enough to justify the difference between the 330i and 330d as 'cars'..

....

 

[[TW]Fox]

I did nearly buy a diesel - for months there are posts of me going on about how I'm going to get a 530d Sport. Then I realised a 530i was £2-3k cheaper for an identical spec car and.. I've never looked back

 

[MarkDavis]

A 530d is never going to make sense if all you do in drive 2 miles into town and 2 miles back again each day (incidentally, what wrong with your legs? ) A diesel only makes sense if you're doing higher mileages (that 8k/£37pcm calculation by Demon is hardly based on high mileage) though it will hold its value better than the 530i. BMW diesels seem to command silly money on the used market.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I did way more in the first year, at one point I was working 50 miles away.

 

[Fr0dders]

I did nearly buy a diesel - for months there are posts of me going on about how I'm going to get a 530d Sport. Then I realised a 530i was £2-3k cheaper for an identical spec car and.. I've never looked back

what would you do, if in my case a 2005 530d sport was the same price as a 2005 330 sport ?

both ST TDCIs and ST220s about 3/4 years old can be had for about 9k. So allthough the BMW statement above is not true, im trying to relate it to what you intend on buying

 

[[TW]Fox]

2005/05 ST220 with 80k trade books at £7290
2005/05 ST TDCi with 80k trade books at £6700

Wowzor Whats going on there?!

 

[RoboCod]

If I were thinking about a £10k 220 why not go for a slightly older DC5 for the same price?

Then you get these...

+points

1) That noise !
2) Powah !!!
3) Speed !!
4) more toys

...In a better car

 

[[TW]Fox]

If I were thinking about a £10k 220 why not go for a slightly older DC5 for the same price?

You've basically just said:

'If thinking about a £10k 3 litre fully loaded Sports Saloon, why not go for a slightly older 2 door stripped out rice-rocket with a 2 litre 4 pot instead'

Edit: LOL did you just say a plus point of the DC5 was 'toys'?

Seriously, this is the worst example of a pointless recommendation I have ever seen. You've basically just recommended a Smart Car to someone asking you to spec a transit.