OCUK Book Club #1 (Catch 22 - Joseph Heller)

titchard · 31 Mar 2008 at 00:17

Well this is the inaugural OCUK book club thread!

After the first poll you guys have voted Catch 22 as your first choice - and now this is the thread to discuss it in!

Obviously some will have read it before while some will be reading this for the first time - so if you are going to talk about anything that is majorly plot ruining, or changing - please mention so before your text (and possibly put a gap) to stop disappointment!

Discuss away...

Rich

Fubsy · 31 Mar 2008 at 00:26

This might give me some motivation to get it read. I've had it on loan from the library for a month and only got through about the first 100 pages

I'm not a great reader at all

escape sanity · 31 Mar 2008 at 03:30

I have owned this book for ages without actually starting it so this would be a good time to do so.

Meridian · 31 Mar 2008 at 08:29

I read this a very long time ago - I was about 17 IIRC. The thing I found is that you have to be in the mood to read it: don't sit down to read a bit more because you feel you have to. The humour is fairly dead-pan, and if you're not in the mood you won't catch a lot of it. But it is one of those books everyone should read.

M

titchard · 31 Mar 2008 at 09:58

Meridian said:
I read this a very long time ago - I was about 17 IIRC. The thing I found is that you have to be in the mood to read it: don't sit down to read a bit more because you feel you have to. The humour is fairly dead-pan, and if you're not in the mood you won't catch a lot of it. But it is one of those books everyone should read.

M

I read the first couple of chapters last night, and did realise the humour was quite dead pan, first it was a bit puzzling then as I talked it through in my head I got what he was aiming at.

Rich

semi-pro waster · 31 Mar 2008 at 14:48

I might be alone in this but I didn't think that Catch 22 was all that great, I admit that I read it quite a long time ago (when I was 12 I think) but it just seemed to take the long way to make a fairly simple point. I may have to re-read it again though to see if I just missed something good about it.

bcjames · 1 Apr 2008 at 12:16

I really like this book, and although I found it enjoyable and easy enough to read, I had to switch into the Catch 22 mindset to get the most of it, as if I didn't, I'd be rereading passages. It took me a chapter or two to work out how to interpret it, for want of a better expression.

Grimgoth · 1 Apr 2008 at 14:28

semi-pro waster said:
I might be alone in this but I didn't think that Catch 22 was all that great, I admit that I read it quite a long time ago (when I was 12 I think) but it just seemed to take the long way to make a fairly simple point. I may have to re-read it again though to see if I just missed something good about it.

I would like to ask you what you think the point of the book was, because I haven't the foggiest. I admit that I didn't really enjoy reading the book, but then i believe that its really well written in the style of circular arguement that is now encapsulated in the books name. Its in the same vein of the long sentence that is the last chapter in James Joyce's Ulysses. Was there a point in doing it that way? Style I guess.

Also, I am guessing that a lot of us have actually grown up knowing the phrase "Catch 22" to mean a circular argument/ no win situation. How was this expressed before the book came out? I think the fact that the title of the book is now synonymous with that kind of meaning, shows that it is a really well written piece of circular argument.

Carzy · 1 Apr 2008 at 14:53

titchard said:
Well this is the inaugural OCUK book club thread!

After the first poll you guys have voted Catch 22 as your first choice - and now this is the thread to discuss it in!

Obviously some will have read it before while some will be reading this for the first time - so if you are going to talk about anything that is majorly plot ruining, or changing - please mention so before your text (and possibly put a gap) to stop disappointment!

Discuss away...

Rich

Are you not going to structure the reading at all? Other book clubs I've seen divide the book out into portions that are read say by the end of the week and the discussed so that you all work through the book at the same pace. Seems a lot better than just saying "here's the book - discuss"? because then it's not really a book club and it's more just a thread about Catch 22...

semi-pro waster · 1 Apr 2008 at 15:18

Grimgoth said:
I would like to ask you what you think the point of the book was, because I haven't the foggiest. I admit that I didn't really enjoy reading the book, but then i believe that its really well written in the style of circular arguement that is now encapsulated in the books name. Its in the same vein of the long sentence that is the last chapter in James Joyce's Ulysses. Was there a point in doing it that way? Style I guess.

From what I recall of it the book is essentially about the futility of war and the mindset of the people who conduct it - you'd be mad to enjoy war but if you are sane enough to not want to take part then you aren't officially mad so cannot be exempted and so forth in an entirely circular fashion. I found that rendered the whole lot a bit tedious, the incidentals of the story weren't particularly interesting and that is why I thought it could/should have been massively more condensed than it was. Some good, even great, passages but for the most part overly long and uninvolving - I'm sure that Mr Heller cares greatly about my perspicacious critique.

That is at least partly why I want to re-read it, I'm sure I must have missed something as surely everyone who lauds the book hasn't simply bought into the hubris that surrounds it rather than viewing purely on merit, have they?

titchard · 1 Apr 2008 at 16:01

Carzy said:
Are you not going to structure the reading at all? Other book clubs I've seen divide the book out into portions that are read say by the end of the week and the discussed so that you all work through the book at the same pace. Seems a lot better than just saying "here's the book - discuss"? because then it's not really a book club and it's more just a thread about Catch 22...

Well I can hardly say that we are starting on Monday then start questioning on Monday can I? I put the thread up firstly so people can know it's started and talk amoungst themselves, then I will post each week about the book and start discussion from there - allowing people to get into the book first, plus people all read at a different pace, a bit unfair on people if they are interested but slow readers.

Rich

georges · 1 Apr 2008 at 16:01

I didn't really know it was that popular when I first read it, but I really enjoyed it nonetheless; one of my favourite books as it happens.

Grimgoth · 1 Apr 2008 at 16:28

semi-pro waster said:
From what I recall of it the book is essentially about the futility of war and the mindset of the people who conduct it - you'd be mad to enjoy war but if you are sane enough to not want to take part then you aren't officially mad so cannot be exempted and so forth in an entirely circular fashion. <snip>

Ah. i guess thats where i missed it. To me, the book is not really about war, but rather the same kind of "behaviour", i guess, can be seen in all facets of society, not just war. For example, take "freedom of speech" or "human rights", and you'll find that a lot of the tenets there, are in essence circular arguments, and there are catches all along the way. We are all portrayed by the different characters in the book, for example, nice trying to reason it out, and live our lives as normally as possible, given the illogical parameters. War was just the example Heller chose, as he could relate to it, and it is easy to see how illogical it just is. But I think that catch 22 can be applied to a much wider scenario.

I'd like to add my vote to setting some tasks to the book club, like finishing a chapter by next monday or something, then discussing a particular aspect or somesort. Or even done in the opposite way; read this chapter with the slant that we are going to discuss this aspect on monday (or whatever time). Therein i think many hidden gems/point of views can come to the surface...

titchard · 1 Apr 2008 at 16:50

Crazy & Grimgoth,

After sitting back and having a coffee and thinking about it you two are right - while I was going to stop and discuss at every monday (till the end of the month) I think you are right as to an aim of a certain chapter shall be set.

How do people feel with chapter ten (Wintergreen) which is 120 pages in by this coming monday? (April 7th).

I feel that is fair - but how do others feel? That will mean we are at the same point and it will be easier to discuss.

Rich

Carzy · 1 Apr 2008 at 16:55

titchard said:
Crazy & Grimgoth,

After sitting back and having a coffee and thinking about it you two are right - while I was going to stop and discuss at every monday (till the end of the month) I think you are right as to an aim of a certain chapter shall be set.

How do people feel with chapter ten (Wintergreen) which is 120 pages in by this coming monday? (April 7th).

I feel that is fair - but how do others feel? That will mean we are at the same point and it will be easier to discuss.

Rich

Been a while since someone couldn't read my name properly!

titchard · 1 Apr 2008 at 17:13

Carzy said:
Been a while since someone couldn't read my name properly!

I /swear/ I wrote Carzy...

Sorry dude, I apologise!

Rich

Grimgoth · 2 Apr 2008 at 17:21

titchard said:
How do people feel with chapter ten (Wintergreen) which is 120 pages in by this coming monday? (April 7th).

120 pages by monday. sigh. at school again

and there i thought i could get away with a chapter a week hehe.

any particular aspects we are likely to be discussing, or anything goes?

vaultingSlinky said:
I think half of it is that it makes the people who read and understand it feel clever (as it is one of those books that many leave unfinished/don't understand) so they proceed to tell everyone else how much they love it.

/cynic

Ah, but then thats what the bookie club is for, so we can see if the people who feel clever, really understand what it is they are trying to be clever about.... for the record again, I don't like the book, but I do like discussing the other point of view... Now I am going to have to read the whole danged thing again. Joy. lol.

btw, just to make sure, if we are going to quote something from the book, i think we need to make sure we put down which danged edition we have, as I am sure we all have various different copies; so edition, chapter number, page number, then quote, dunno if you want to be anal enough to put line number in too.

You can tell I'm really getting into this book club thing, its been ages since i read anything properly.

titchard · 2 Apr 2008 at 17:52

Grimgoth said:
120 pages by monday. sigh. at school again and there i thought i could get away with a chapter a week hehe.

any particular aspects we are likely to be discussing, or anything goes?

Firstly, I'd like to hear just peoples general feelings up to that point of the book, then we can jump off from there on opinions and styles etc would make it easy to get a discussion going.

Grimgoth said:
Ah, but then thats what the bookie club is for, so we can see if the people who feel clever, really understand what it is they are trying to be clever about.... for the record again, I don't like the book, but I do like discussing the other point of view... Now I am going to have to read the whole danged thing again. Joy. lol.

btw, just to make sure, if we are going to quote something from the book, i think we need to make sure we put down which danged edition we have, as I am sure we all have various different copies; so edition, chapter number, page number, then quote, dunno if you want to be anal enough to put line number in too.

You can tell I'm really getting into this book club thing, its been ages since i read anything properly.

Chapter and page number is probably best - as that would help quotes, good point as we all will have slightly different editions (probably).

Good to hear you are getting into this!

Rich