Calzaghe vs Hopkins !!

RJJ isn't a spoiler like Hopkins so you can't call that. Styles make fights.

I know he's not a spoiler, Jones has got skillz. He's not as closed off as Hopkins but at the same time he's quicker and hits harder. Joe would get hit much more and even at the age of what is he, 38-39 now, I reckon Jones would be too sharp to get KO'd or lose that many rounds tbh... Apparently he looked pretty good vs Trinidad.
 
WTF are you on about? Calzaghe was the aggressor and Calzaghe was the only one interested in trying to box. Hopkins just ran away and tried to cheat his way to victory and got found out.

Ok, being the aggressor ISN'T a punch, or a skill, its called, taking a step forward, can you do that, can anyone? yes, the boxing skill comes in for instance, when Calzaghe comes forward in a burst of short weak inaccurate punches and through that Hopkins picks out a accurate single counter punch that has power and lands cleanly. Thats skill, rushing forwards with brawl style tactics isn't actually a skill, its called brawling, and its not good boxing. If that fight had gone on for 20 rounds Calzaghe's face would be black and blue, with cuts all over, and Hopkins would have been tired, without a scratch on his face laughing as he knocks out Calzaghe.

AS for holding, I'm sorry but watch the fight ffs, all the early rounds its mostly Calzaghe holding. he was rushing forwards and getting caught by heavy counters and holding on to stop being countered. For every hold in the fight where you can see Hopkins hooking his arms around Calzaghe there was another instance where Calzaghe was holding Hopkins. You can physically see this if you rewatch it. IF Calzaghe has his arm hooked around HOpkins at any point he's holding.

IN general all boxers hold these days, way more than they should and its a shame, but a commonly used tactic. But very often even when one person holds, the other is too. Frequently you can see both hopkins and Calzaghe hooking their arms around each other as neither seemed to want to fight close. Calzaghe wasn't getting any good punches in close so held, and Hopkins was tired and didn't want to waste effort on short small punches, but save his strength for the power counters which he threw all night long.

"The Ten Point Must System
Each judge scores each round using the following criteria:

* Clean Punching (25%)
* Effective Aggression (25%)
* Ring Generalship (25%)
* Defense (25%)

Clean punches are above the waist, on the front or sides of the body or head, and with the knuckle of the glove. The judge must determine if one boxer is landing more clean punches than the other.

Effective Aggression means landing punches while moving forward. If a fighter is aggressive but not landing punches, that does not count as effective aggression.

Ring Generalship means who is controlling the action in the ring, using strategy and skills beyond straight punching power. Is one fighter using agility and feinting to throw his opponent off guard? Or setting up his opponent for effective combinations? When one fighter moves the other around the ring at will, that fighter is displaying ring generalship.

Defense refers to a fighter's success at avoiding blows. This can be accomplished by blocking, bobbing, weaving, good footwork, and/or good movement.

Each of these criteria is supposed to be given equal weight (25%), although there's some dispute as to whether that actually happens. "

When you make "slapping" contact or tap the opponent it DOESN'T COUNT. THe contact is supposed to be good clean contact which counts as the knuckle area of the glove making clean and "flush" contact with the opponent, this is something Calzaghe did NOT do. Hopkins barely took a hard punch, Calzaghe took many, HOpkins should take the whole 25% for defence. He didn't take a tough hit till the 8th round, JOe took repeated hard rights throughout the entire fight.

Aggression, sure joe should it, but it was pointless, he wasn't making good clean contact, aggression without good clean contact doesn't count, so none of his did. Ring Generalship, Hopkins got off all the best punches, Joe kept moving forwards but had nothing to show for it.

THe days of "clean contact" mattering are gone. Tap the opponent and it counts. THe rules here are the ones that used to matter, and are supposed to be the rules still but are completely ignored. Frankly Calzaghe barely had any rounds where he made decent punches, and HOpkins had loads, he should have won. Anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't know the rules of boxing, and is one of those ridiculous english fans who think their guy won because he's english.


Its just a shame judges have given in to the pressure of fans who don't know a thing about boxing and now give decisions the way the fans want rather than by the rules. Boxing will most likely continue going downhill, with lots of fast and frantic and completely helpless fighters winning all the fights.
 
Calzaghe landed 33 percent of his 707 punches, while Hopkins connected with 27 percent of his 468 blows. Calzaghe had the edge in power punches with both total blows and accuracy, and he heavily outjabbed Hopkins.

In perhaps the most telling statistic of all, Calzaghe connected with 232 punches, the most ever landed against Hopkins in his 21 fights that were tracked by CompuBox statistics.

I rest my case. :) The judges are best to judge not arm chair supporters like ourselves. The statistics and the judges showed that Joe won the fight so suck it up. :p
 
Man, that's one long post to attempt to validate a point of view the most of the viewing public, pundits, other boxers and two judges disagree with. Yes, it was a poor fight but to say Calzaghe didn't land a shot and was holding is way off.

Are you sure you weren't drunk? :p

Its just a shame judges have given in to the pressure of fans who don't know a thing about boxing and now give decisions the way the fans want rather than by the rules. Boxing will most likely continue going downhill, with lots of fast and frantic and completely helpless fighters winning all the fights.
I think that's a grave disrespect to the technicality of the fighters. What you call "fast, frantic and helpless", to me is called strategy within the rules.

Hopkins played a blinder by not allowing Joe to fight the way he fights. Yes Hopkins controlled the fight, Joe knew this so instead, as he always does, he found a way to win by pick-pocketing the rounds by your so-called, short, weak and inaccurate punches. Not pretty, no, but within the rules and effective for the given objective, which is to win the fight.

I still maintain that JC clearly won the fight and the split was reflective of the difficulty some of the rounds were to score.
 
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I thought JC deserved to win. I believe that he was really starting to wear Hopkins down when the low blow went in. I think he could have stopped Hopkins otherwise as he was tiring badly in that round. The low blow gave him ample time to recover.
 
Clean punches are above the waist, on the front or sides of the body or head, and with the knuckle of the glove. The judge must determine if one boxer is landing more clean punches than the other.

I think that is the key, don't get me wrong I wanted Calzaghe to win and i'm happy he did....but you cannot call those slap things proper punches, he hit's down with the fingers rather than the knuckles, scores "points" but would barely register with most boxers (maybe the accumulation of 5-6 clean "slaps" may start to have an effect, but not in the way 5-6 clean "punches" would).
 
IN general all boxers hold these days, way more than they should and its a shame, but a commonly used tactic.

That because a boxer is most suseptable to getting hit when breaking away. Its almost impossible to defend properly cause when clinching you tend to be straight on giving the boxer much better range of motion to delivery a punch from an angle.

When you make "slapping" contact or tap the opponent it DOESN'T COUNT. THe contact is supposed to be good clean contact which counts as the knuckle area of the glove making clean and "flush" contact

Thats amateur boxing more so than pro boxing. Hense the white part of the glove in the amateurs. Pro refs are not told to stop slapping


most of what you said i agree with but the part about the fans controlling the judges is retarded. Atmosphere sways a judge and so does their angle. They dont have the beenfit of your 3 prime location camaramen, instant replays, commentators. All they have is a view of one side, a knowledge of boxing and the ability to hear crowds cheer and gasp when punchs supposedly land.
 
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I wasn't so much saying that fans completely control the judges. I was getting at judging has been awful for years with results frequently going the wrong way. Ok thats always happened but it seems to be worse. Over the last several years the amount of boxers getting victorys while being beaten soundly is getting larger, the amount of ref's who will count any contact as a hit is getting bigger and the quality of punches needed to score a point is decreasing.

Amature boxing is far more strict on scoring(then again haven't really watched any since Audleys Olympics to be fair). But the rules are effectively the same.

For someone saying Hopkins may have been knocked out if it continued without break for low blow, which remember WAS the second low blow. If you've ever been kicked/hit in the nads, remember how a TINY contact with a bruised ball hurts worse than anything you've ever felt, remember that, pro boxer even with a weak punch on an already punched ball, you'd be in pain too. Either way he clearly needed the break, or wanted it for tiredness, he never once remotely looked close to being knocked down. AS he said after the fight he barely had any swelling let alone bruising, redness or cuts. JC looked like he'd been beaten pretty badly, thats the difference.

Pro ref's don't have to stop slapping but they really should not in any way at all count them towards their tally of hits that they score on.

AS for the percentages from a post above, it doesn't matter. Most of those hits by JC were pathetic and really really don't count, its as simple as that. Hitting someone with the fingers, the back the side of the glove doesn't matter, true flush punches do. If we move even further away from the older rules than we have someone will simply tap someone on the head with no backswing repeatedly and win the fight.

Frankly JC just doesn't deserve to be the champion, he was vastly vastly outclassed. ANyone that thinks otherwise does not know boxing at all.

Judges have changed their ways of scoring because people are unhappy that titles seem to stay with people for ages and a severe lack of quality opposition means very few challengers winning. So now we change the scoring where an offensive person making almost no decent contact can win so crowds see more exciting fights.

Thats all well and good but the same thing in football would be Bolton winning 3-0 but Arsenal getting awarded 4 goals for attacking more and making more shots but not getting any on target. Sports a sport, best man should win and judges shouldn't adjust stuff to make crowds happier.

Commentators ALWAYS favour the aggressor no matter what. Infact the presenter on Setanta seemed to very much be suggesting it was a BS result, while the other guys who somehow had JC behind by 2-3 rounds by the 8th/9th, suddenly changed their minds by the end. 2-3 rounds ahead way more than half way through does not result in a 116-111 fight.
 
hehe BH has obviously tricked you into believing he won. And to say he was vastly outclassed you really have no idea.

AS for the percentages from a post above, it doesn't matter. Most of those hits by JC were pathetic and really really don't count, its as simple as that. Hitting someone with the fingers, the back the side of the glove doesn't matter, true flush punches do. If we move even further away from the older rules than we have someone will simply tap someone on the head with no backswing repeatedly and win the fight.

Who do you think is right a 25 year old arm chair fan or three experienced judges. ;)
 
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I guess he just likes fighters whose whole tactics are to spoil the opponents game. That is one plus point you can give Calzaghe, Hopkins never felt comfortable enough to move away from simply counter punching.
 
Frankly JC just doesn't deserve to be the champion, he was vastly vastly outclassed. ANyone that thinks otherwise does not know boxing at all.

Well as much as I agree with your points about Calzaghe's questionable punching, I would not go so far as to say he is an unworthy champion and was outclassed. He has a good jab and decent single shot punching (i.e. not slapping), only really when he throws flurries that it looks slappy. However he out-flurries all of his opponents. And even though that may mean that most of his shots either don't land or don't land cleanly, his opponents don't get many punches in edgeways, even Hopkins, king of the counter punch, was pretty limited by Joe's style, and Joe wasn't even performing 100%. You may question Calzaghe's boxing technique, but if his style makes his opponents fail in their boxing abilities, then surely he comes out on top.


Commentators ALWAYS favour the aggressor no matter what. Infact the presenter on Setanta seemed to very much be suggesting it was a BS result, while the other guys who somehow had JC behind by 2-3 rounds by the 8th/9th, suddenly changed their minds by the end. 2-3 rounds ahead way more than half way through does not result in a 116-111 fight.

I would have scored it a lot closer, personally. Calzaghe by 3 rounds perhaps. Which, given his 10-8 first round, makes 116-111 a very flattering card. However Hopkins was outboxed on the whole. He was slow and predictable.
 
I think Joe did well. He won the fight in a foreign country, in a warmer climate and against a very wily fighter.

I was nervous right up until the result, but I hope he can draw from his experiences and be more comfortable in the next fight.

p.s. thanks to the mod that removed my torrent request for the match, recorded off normal us tv and streamed free of charge to the world by the internet. I found it anyhow.
 
I guess he just likes fighters whose whole tactics are to spoil the opponents game. That is one plus point you can give Calzaghe, Hopkins never felt comfortable enough to move away from simply counter punching.


Hopkins has always been a spoiler and counter puncher.

I get in the ring and box and i appreciate much more, a boxer when can take an undeafeated betting favorite champion out of his game so much that the decision could easily have gone the other way.

Boxing is about winning, not about making arm chair fans happy. All this crap about without the fans there wouldnt be boxing is stupid. Its a sport, their will always be fans, money, titles.

Amature shows sell out week on week, small hall shows are always full without great talents.

Strategy is much more appreciative to real boxing fans. If people only want KO's or lopsided fights they should just stand outside the local night club at 2pm and watch the drunk chavs fighting over whos taking the easy fat bird home
 
Frankly JC just doesn't deserve to be the champion, he was vastly vastly outclassed. ANyone that thinks otherwise does not know boxing at all.
I like the way you reinforce your point of view by putting others down who oppose it! ;)

Plenty of people know about boxing and agreed that Calzaghe done enough. I can see your point about being outclassed, Hopkins controlled the fight. I've never seen a Calzaghe fight where he hasn't been able to flurry and dominate and that is pure class on Hopkins' part. He spoiled the fight for Calzaghe and forced him to look ordinary but again, Calzaghe stealed the rounds by letting his arms go more and pushing forward. In rounds that are very hard to score with lots of spoiling tactics, something has to count. I know Compubox doesn't understand the fight but on pure numbers alone, Hopkins was outworked.

Surely that's enough?

Oh, you may think I know nothing about boxing but I maintain Calzaghe won the fight. My opinion is qualified by the fact I have boxed (not professionally) and have been a fan for 30 years.
 
If people only want KO's or lopsided fights they should just stand outside the local night club at 2pm and watch the drunk chavs fighting over whos taking the easy fat bird home
Said with real conviction; a man with experience, eh? :p
 
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