2008 Turkish GP - Race 5/18

A bit of a sweeping statement there. I'm pretty sure both drivers know how to setup and develop a car..

They have no experiencing of developing and advancing an F1 car, and it will start to show.
Last year Alonso will have been giving all the meaningful feedback to develop the car for McLaren and Fisichella will have been giving the good info to Renault.
 
I stand corrected.

I could've sworn that he won in Australia. After checking, it was actually Hill who won it with Villeneuve in 2nd, who actually led most of the race until he had an oil leak, which allowed Hill through.
 
Basically Mclaren aren't in the same league as Ferrari in both developing their car and setting up.
Ferrari are very good on their tyres, are extremely fast and are more adaptable to different tracks.
Mclaren are rough on their tyres, harder to setup and haven't developed their car much from the MP-23 to the 24.
BMW are fast but not fast enough, they seem to have no tyre problems but if they continue developing they will reach the top 2 soon.

For the drivers its hard to tell. We have no real info plus i cba to get into that argument. :p
 
Or maybe it is because last year McLaren had a direct feed into Ferrari and where stealing technical information from them.
Now McLaren are on their own, they can't beat them, hmmmm coincidence? I wonder why ITV never mention that? hmmm :o

The other problem is, McLaren dont have anyone with any experience on developing a car. Alonso claimed he gave Mclaren half a second improvement. Which, especially looking at this year, isn't entirely unbelievable. But now you have 2 drivers who just don't know anything about developing a car, McLaren are struggling.

If you can find anything official where McLaren were charged with stealing information then please post a link.

I would also recommend a quick check on the background and experience of Pedro de la Rosa before writing off the McLaren test team.
 
Looks like all three have the 'Schumacher for sure' bug now :(

Snippets from the press conference:

LH: For sure it was on my mind at some stages. I was having some vibrations and I wasn’t sure whether that was the tyre or whether that was a flat spot that I possibly picked up earlier on. So for sure it was in the back of my mind.

FM: Yeah, for sure last year was okay. I finished third in Monte Carlo but McLaren were very strong there. We have been working a lot – even from last year – on the set-up for Monte Carlo for this year, so hopefully we will have a good car and a good chance to win there as well.

KR: For sure we tried to be in second place but we couldn’t, so I would rather take third than anything else.

:(
 
A bit of a sweeping statement there. I'm pretty sure both drivers know how to setup and develop a car..

It isnt simply a case of knowing how to setup and develop a car. You can be crap at it and you can be brilliant at it. All drivers fall in between crap and brilliant. It would appear that Hamilton is a bit crap at it. I cant say much about Heikki as he is so new to McLaren. What we can say though is that Heikki didnt exactly help Renault improve the car last year. In all honesty though, in his first season, I wouldnt expect it.

After only a handful of races, Alonso has helped move Renault forward. Something that didnt happen during the entire season that Heikki and Fisichella were there in 2008.

Remember, there is no absolute in this. Only inferences and possible coincidences. I dont think its a coincidence that:

1. in 2005 and 2006 Renault win the WDC with Alonso, beating the all-conquering MS/Ferrari combination
2. in 2007 Alonso leaves and Renault go down the pan, immediately. In 2006 Renault scored 206 pts, while in 2007 they scored 51. Alonso was the only change.
3. he joins McLaren for 2007 and they suddenly became the contructor to beat (only FIA's intervention prevented them from becoming 2007 Constructors Champs). As a comparison, the previous year, Renault scored (206) almost double the points of McLaren (110). McLaren were off the pace.
4. he leaves McLaren for 2008 and suddenly McLaren, while not struggling, are finding wins difficult to come by
5. he joins Renault for 2008 and they appear to make a jump forward after only 4 races.

A pattern is beginning to emerge here.
 
If you can find anything official where McLaren were charged with stealing information then please post a link.

I would also recommend a quick check on the background and experience of Pedro de la Rosa before writing off the McLaren test team.

Semantics. OK change it to illicetly holding information from their rivals. And 'receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months'
'he information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari's sporting strategy'

Ahh yes de la Rosa, he was the one with the direct connection straight into Ferrari wasn't he ;)

Edit, sunama hit the nail on the head. And i am not the only person who thinks that a lack of experience in your top 2 drivers is going to hurt a team.
 
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If you can find anything official where McLaren were charged with stealing information then please post a link.

I would also recommend a quick check on the background and experience of Pedro de la Rosa before writing off the McLaren test team.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/9/6775.html


"According to the Council, the new evidence makes clear that:

"...Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;
- the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. de la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team;
- the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari’s sporting strategy;
- Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run tests in the simulator;
- the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso;
- there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so;
- Coughlan’s role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties."




I think the section in bold covers that.
 
Ahh yes de la Rosa, he was the one with the direct connection straight into Ferrari wasn't he ;)

:D

The way I see it is that all teams copy eachothers' cars and parts at various stages throughout the season. The only problem was that McLaren got found out and their team-boss went and ratted out his own team. That really is stupidity and everyone involved shouldve denied any knowledge, destroying any data (electronic or otherwise) that could've linked McLaren with Ferrari, in the process. But anyway, thats all water under the bridge.

Weren't Renault also found to have sensitive data from another team? And why didnt the FIA come down hard on them?
 
Because they wernt a threat to Ferrari aka the FIA's bitch.

Woah, hold up. So which is it, Ferrari bashers? Are the FIA the ring leaders and Ferrari "the FIA's bitch", or is the FIA being whipped into submission* by Ferrari? 'Cause y'all don't seem to be able to stick with one story.


* - JRS being fully aware of the jokes that can be made with that one, given the recent revelations about the private life of the FIA president.
 
First off, Damon Hill cannot be put in the same class as Alonso. Alonso is the only guy to beat the all-conquering MS/Ferrari combination, since they became a force to be reckoned with. Hakinnen did it, however, Damon Hill tried to beat MS many times, while he was Bennetton, but couldnt and only won the title after MS moved to Ferrari and the Ferrari/MS combo was still in its infancy. D.Hill is not the same as Alonso.

Damon had to beat a team with MS cheating. There isn;'t a way in the world that software in the ECU of the Benetton was just for testing :rolleyes: Then you have to consider how long they they used the fuel rig without the restriction of the filter to make fuel stops quicker.

Damon also had to beat his team mate fairly unlike so many others.

Furthermore, Villeneuve was a rookie in F1 circles, but not in America. In fact, he was the reigning PPG CART IndyCar World Series (America's F1 equivalent) Champion. He arrived in F1 and immediately won his first race in F1. He wasnt really a rookie.

Hamilton is a completely different animal to J.Villeneuve. Now, if you had said Gilles Villeneuve, then maybe we wouldve had a good debate. ;)

So? How many cart drivers have actually become good F1 drivers. Next to none. I'd say hamiltons grooming at mclaren and GP2 career is much closer to being the finished article for F1 than any cart driver. Almost all struggle. JPM didnt because he had a full years testing at williams and F3000. Hamilton doesn't have a tenth of the race craft of a JV, Zinardi or a JPM. Those drivers can actually keep a much much faster car behind them.

Villeneuve was unable to win the title, in what was the best car when he had to deal with D.Hill. It was only when D.Hill left, that he was able to outscore his team mate and win the title. Hamilton on the other hand, matched his team mate's points total in his first year (unheard of) and leads his (different) team-mate's pts total this year, too. A pattern is beginning to emerge here and I'm thinking Senna, rather than Schumacher..

What? Villeneuve had a lot of bad luck in his first year, compared to lewis who had a great deal of luck. Villeneuve also had a lot more wet races, especially for a guy who hadn't raced in the wet. Villeneuve also took the battle to the last race of the season.

JV also out did his team mate at all the drivers circuits for pace, when pole actually meant being fastest and going round Eau rouge and the 130r was a choice between staying flat or bottling it. Not a flat throttle with traction control.

but Hamilton does seem different, firstly because of how he handled Alonso, who was in great form last year and secondly, because he is the only guy who seems capable of taking on the seemingly unbeatable Ferraris. Senna used to do the same where he mixed it with the Williams' in his inferior McLaren.

Senna won races in crap cars in a more competitive era. Hamilton won't win **** in modern f1 unless he's in the best car. You make mention of how he handled alonso. Well perhaps Alonso is over rated, he can't do squat now he's car isnt the best. He has to have team orders or he falls to pieces.

What Alonso is doing now in a poor renault is no better than JV in a poor williams in 98 or a totally useless BAR in 99/2000.
 
The FIA are fully behind Ferrari and will stop at nothing to ensure that Ferrari win as many titles as possible.

The next phase in this saga will see Max Mosley ousted from his position and install a Ferrari employee, by the name of Jean Todt, at the head of FIA. This will ensure that Ferrari win virtually every race and any future technical changes to F1, are first run past Ferrari for their authorisation.

:D
 
The next phase in this saga will see Max Mosley ousted from his position and install a Ferrari employee, by the name of Jean Todt, at the head of FIA. This will ensure that Ferrari win virtually every race and any future technical changes to F1, are first run past Ferrari for their authorisation.

:D

I'm not honestly certain I see the point that Ferrari-bashers are making when they say stuff like the above. By their logic, we should also expect Jean Todt to give Peugeot a leg-up in rallying (given his loooooooooong association with them as a co-driver then manager). But do we hear any bleating about that? Do we ****. I swear, the level of obsession that gets displayed over a supposed pro-Ferrari bias at the FIA borders on being creepy sometimes.
 
Damon had to beat a team with MS cheating. There isn;'t a way in the world that software in the ECU of the Benetton was just for testing :rolleyes: Then you have to consider how long they they used the fuel rig without the restriction of the filter to make fuel stops quicker.

If Bennetton were running an illegal car, the FIA wouldve sorted them out. But they didnt, hence, we have to assume that their car checked out OK. At the end of the day, what you are suggesting is a conspiracy theory.

Damon also had to beat his team mate fairly unlike so many others.

So does Hamilton.

So? How many cart drivers have actually become good F1 drivers. Next to none. I'd say hamiltons grooming at mclaren and GP2 career is much closer to being the finished article for F1 than any cart driver. Almost all struggle. JPM didnt because he had a full years testing at williams and F3000. Hamilton doesn't have a tenth of the race craft of a JV, Zinardi or a JPM. Those drivers can actually keep a much much faster car behind them.

Yep. Hamilton has much less experience, however, he has the raw tools to be one of the greats. Time will tell.

What? Villeneuve had a lot of bad luck in his first year, compared to lewis who had a great deal of luck. Villeneuve also had a lot more wet races, especially for a guy who hadn't raced in the wet. Villeneuve also took the battle to the last race of the season.

JV was a good driver, Ive never doubted that. But Hamilton just feels a bit more special, just as MS before him and Senna before him. JV faded badly and part of a drivers' skill is to get himself into a competitve car - Senna was brilliant and ruthless at this. He showed no loyalty and was totally focused on winning. JV insisted on driving for BAR, attempting to make it great (like MS did with Bennetton). It just didnt work out for him and he faded badly.

Oh and a driver makes his own luck. Senna was a very lucky driver, but thats just the way it is. When you hire a driver, you are hiring him to bring his good luck with him.

JV also out did his team mate at all the drivers circuits for pace, when pole actually meant being fastest and going round Eau rouge and the 130r was a choice between staying flat or bottling it. Not a flat throttle with traction control.

He beat D.Hill for pace, but when it counted D.Hill was the guy who won the championship. Also D.Hill wasnt a Schumacher-beater. Alonso is. Alonso and Hamilton went toe-to-toe and finished equal.

Senna won races in crap cars in a more competitive era. Hamilton won't win **** in modern f1 unless he's in the best car. You make mention of how he handled alonso. Well perhaps Alonso is over rated, he can't do squat now he's car isnt the best. He has to have team orders or he falls to pieces.

Alonso had no team-orders in 2007 and he finished 1 point away from the title, in his first season with a new team. I would say thats pretty impressive, especially when you consider that he was under immense mental pressure as most of his team/colleagues were not talking to him. They made him feel like an outsider and unwanted. Imagine if nobody at your place of work talked to you - how would you feel? Do you feel you would be able to perform you duties to the best of your abilities under those conditions? Well, Alonso did.

What Alonso is doing now in a poor renault is no better than JV in a poor williams in 98 or a totally useless BAR in 99/2000.

Well, JV had quite a few seasons with BAR before he got nowhere and finally got the boot. If Alonso stays with Renault for 3yrs, say and gets nowhere, then we can say that Alonso and JV have done a similar sort of thing.

People seem to forget that Alonso is the only guy to have won 2 world titles in the current F1 driver line-up. He is also the only guy who stopped MS/Ferrari in their tracks, when they were seemingly unstoppable. Hakkinen did beat MS but the MS/Ferrari gravy train hadnt kicked in until 2000. After 2000, even Hakkinen and Newey couldnt stop MS/Ferrari. Alonso/Renault did though.

I rate Alonso highly because he beat MS. And I rate Hamilton highly because he was Alonso's equal last year, though this year is very important for Hamilton, as 1 good season does not make a great driver/champion.
 
:D

The way I see it is that all teams copy eachothers' cars and parts at various stages throughout the season. The only problem was that McLaren got found out and their team-boss went and ratted out his own team. That really is stupidity and everyone involved shouldve denied any knowledge, destroying any data (electronic or otherwise) that could've linked McLaren with Ferrari, in the process. But anyway, thats all water under the bridge.

Weren't Renault also found to have sensitive data from another team? And why didnt the FIA come down hard on them?

Well the way i see it, once it is on a car and the car is being driven around the track etc and you can view what they are doing, if you copy those parts, then fair enough. If you copy strategies etc then that is completely different.

Also the reason they got caught is Mike Coughlan's wife took the Ferrari data to a local photocopy shop and got them to photocopy it for him. The employee at the place thought 'hey this isn't right' and made a few phone calls.

Got caught for being a lazy git.
 
JV was a good driver, Ive never doubted that. But Hamilton just feels a bit more special, just as MS before him and Senna before him. JV faded badly and part of a drivers' skill is to get himself into a competitve car - Senna was brilliant and ruthless at this. He showed no loyalty and was totally focused on winning. JV insisted on driving for BAR, attempting to make it great (like MS did with Bennetton). It just didnt work out for him and he faded badly..

JV showed more race craft in his first season than Hamilton by a long margin.

Re-watch the 96 oz GP and then Estoril. Estoril was one of the best races of the last 15 year. Especially for a driver that needed to win to take the title to the wire. The following pole at suzuka when he was warned the car wouldn't take the 130R flat was simply bravery the modern boys don't even have to consider.

Personally when tracks get so magic corners like that are flat they should either reduce the aero or find new tracks :)

BAR was the worst thing to happen to JV in particular pollock. He had a hold over him that controlled his career, his money and even his own mother wanted him away from pollock. Loads of teams wanted him but without pollock. Sadly JV showed him to much loyalty and I bet only now that he has more time on his hands he can see where his money has gone.

Pollocks wife controlled JV's money and gave him pocket money.

As much as pollock destroyed JV's chances so did the narrow cars, groove tyres and electronic era. All JV's natural advantages where lost and he didnt adapt well enough.

In his last year with Massa he was more than a match for him once they ditched the highly suspect braking system they copied from the ferarri. A crude for of ABS and JV just didnt get on with it. When they used the williams system once BMW took over he fared much better. He was nailing heidfeld and I think should have got another year but the germans where having none of it and did the best job possible to unsettle him.

Sad really that he's too old because F1 is finally coming back to a spec he would have thrived in and he's finally lost ties with pillock.

People seem to forget that Alonso is the only guy to have won 2 world titles in the current F1 driver line-up. He is also the only guy who stopped MS/Ferrari in their tracks, when they were seemingly unstoppable. Hakkinen did beat MS but the MS/Ferrari gravy train hadnt kicked in until 2000. After 2000, even Hakkinen and Newey couldnt stop MS/Ferrari. Alonso/Renault did though..

Alonso didnt stop ferrari and MS, the renault guys did when they got the electronics up to par with Ferrari.

MS won title after title with the genius of the software programmers. Toyota tried to steal that data, Renault came up with their own solution. Thats what dragged the renault up the grid and finally defeated a car that knew where it was on the race track and altered it's engine mapping for each and every corner.

For me Hakkinen beating ms in 98 was a better achievement, beating the alledged best in a non TC electronics era. Although without a broken leg MS would have taken the next year with ease.
 
I don't think that there is anything other for Mc Laren to achieve other than 2nd place, the Ferrari's were 5KM/h faster on the straight and almost the same pace in the bendy bits.

Hamilton could only overtake because he was on a 3 stop strategy so he had a lot less fuel, I think it saves 0.4 seconds for every 10KG of fuel on a lap.
 
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