Is the claimed lap time really causing that much of a fuss?
It seems so. Cadillac have just claimed the official record for a production saloon on the 'Ring, outgunning the M3 and M5 but that seems a lot less interesting than arguing about two unofficial lap times from Porsche and Nissan. I frankly find it incredulous that anybody would take the new GT-R time as gospel, it's a manufacturer claim, just like the GT2 time. Until Sport Auto give both cars a supertest, neither claim holds any real weight, to me anyway. Even when they do give them a thrash, it will make very little difference in the real world, whatever the result. I suspect Nissan will be exposed for failing to mention a few tweaks other than just engine mounts and diff settings. Hopefully the more ardent Porkaphiles\Z06 owners\M-car drivers can then breathe a collective sigh of relief.
Personally, if I were a hardcore Porsche fan, I would be welcoming the GT-R with open arms. Whether or not the GT-R is slower or faster around the 'Ring than the GT2, it's already upset the applecart by out-performing the 997 Turbo, its intended target (as housemaster mentioned). Nissan didn't buy a couple of 911's for a laugh, it was *the* car Nissan set out to eclipse and for good reason. It’s a simply great piece of kit and a great benchmark to set for themselves.
Porsche are hardly likely to sit on their collective asses and let the Japanese muscle in on their "everyday supercar" territory so I think what comes out of the Porsche stable in the next few years is going to be a bit special. Somehow though, by succeeding in their aim, the parameters have become a bit skewed. First it was comparing the GT3 to the GT-R, now the GT2? How about comparing like for like and wait for the V-Spec?
Last point on the Ring time...does it really matter? Will a timed lap in the right conditions by a highly skilled, naturally talented racing driver and ‘Ring veteran translate for us mere mortals into arriving at Tesco’s 3.02 seconds earlier than the guy driving the GT2 (or vice versa)? Not really.
I like all the figures and the stats, it's good bull**** banter and everybody likes to have the bragging rights, but in this case the margins are seemingly so small with the price difference so huge, it seems a bit pointless. If the GT-R was 20 seconds slower, it would still remain a devastatingly quick car.
Some of the Nissan fan boys should realise that it's actually a compliment to have the GT-R compared to a GT2/3's, R8's and Z06's instead of posting Porsche obituaries and the like. And by the same token, I don't doubt for a minute that some of the more colourful responses I've seen on forums have a lot to do with the idea of dropping £130,000 on a order for prestige sportscar only to have some obnoxious Jap sled loaded with electronic frippery come along and potentially burst a bubble.
Hell, if I could afford a GT2, I'd tip my hat to all the hype (is there an easier job than working in the Nissan PR department at the moment?), perhaps even be slightly intrigued by it, but I think I would be sleeping pretty well, thanks.
Regarding the "axe to grind" comment above, I should make it clear I have a vested interest in the subject as I have ordered a GT-R so my cards are on the table for all to see. I can't really comment on the handling, the steering weight or just how satisfying it is to drive as I have yet to actually take one for a spin...but I’m surprised how easily the GT-R is already being dismissed as boring, dull, numb etc.
The GT-R inevitably has its shortcomings, especially when you compare it to a pure weapon like a GT2. The GT-R is trying to be a complete, all-season, everyday supercar package for Joe Average and it will never be possible to satisfy everybody’s requirements for that particular brief. Some want a massively capable, stupidly fast car that loves a wet B-road as much as dry track, others will want something more raw, visceral and purposeful that rewards every correct input. Horses for courses and all that. I find it strange though that people have already made up their minds on the GT-R but have yet to drive it. There has been a lot of praise in the motoring press for it as well, I would not write it off as some anesthesitized, “drives itself” Playstationmobile quite yet.
Car and Driver, Evo, Autocar, Road and Track, Motor Trend, and CAR magazine all seem to have something positive to say about how it feels:
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"It cements itself to corner apexes and scribes perfect lines on exit with none of the steering numbness or front-end washout we’re trained to expect from all-wheel-drive supercars. The obvious rear torque bias pays its dividends, as does a lightning-quick 15.1:1 rack ratio when it comes time to reel in the fat derrière from the inevitable, entertaining, easily controlled power slides."
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"M3 style sideways amusement but with monster traction (read huge ground speed) thrown in as a bonus."
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"Through snaking bends, the GT-R’s front end grips hard while the steering feels direct, linear, instantly responsive. The issue becomes not whether it will stick, but whether you are competent enough to guide it with accuracy at high speeds. Yet this is no sterile experience. You’re genuinely connected as the GT-R downloads your inputs, relaying exactly what your eyes, hands and feet threading together. Unflappable, yes, but still involving."
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"It’s not all about speed, though. Its steering is wonderfully direct, requiring little more than half a turn for most corners, yet it’s never nervous, while it’s steel brakes have an instant, slack-free response but are progressive and easily modulated. There seems not to be a millimeter of slack anywhere in the car – there’s barely any body roll and the chassis takes just one bite at bumps, leaving you feeling completely in charge and connected.
‘It’s odd, isn’t it” observes Meaden, ‘that although it’s so competent and clean, it’s not as synthetic as a Mitsubishi Evo.’"
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"It feels surprisingly lairy, almost like a tuner car (in R mode)."
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"The engine might be warm, but the Bridgestone RE070R rubber is, of course, stone cold at this point. As, clearly, is my Muppet brain, because I very, very nearly spin the GT-R on this, the third corner of my first lap. Some frantic twirling of the perfectly sized steering wheel, a moment looking out of the side window, and stability is restored, but it was close to being the sort of story that you don’t live down for the next 25 years. But at least it determines a couple things: the VDC is plenty loose enough in race mode, and the ATTESA E-TS all-wheel drive gives power first and foremost to the rear wheels.
Understeer only appears right at the limit on the road, and even when it does it’s just reassuring. You can still feel the front fighting hard and never relinquishing grip entirely. Oddly, the tail seems more mobile than it was on the circuit, which is fun. Combined with the accurate and communicative steering, this agility helps to make the car feel lighter and smaller than you know it is.
By now I’m utterly keyed in to the GT-R way of doing things. Brake late, brake deep, flick the left-hand paddle, turn in hard, spot the exit, back on the power, catch the back end with a quarter turn but keep the throttle pinned and let the car magically straighten itself out before you hit 7000rpm and flick the right-hand paddle. Yes, there’s a hint of the computer game about it and it does start to feel quite easy after a while, but it always remains so involving and dependent on your inputs that it’s never one-dimensional. The speed it all happens at is quite enough to make sure it never requires anything less than fully focused concentration too. Fortunately free-flowing adrenalin seems to come with the territory and does quite a good job of sharpening the mind."
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"Don’t confuse this as a simple analogue-versus-digital exchange, either. If the Porsche is the characterful, the Nissan is dripping with charisma, partly because anything that can demolish a road the way it does is going to enthrall any car lover, but also because it is so interactive."
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"If the engine and transmission are breathtaking and the brakes mighty impressive, it says a great deal about the GT-R’s chassis that it’s actually the handling that leaves the most lasting impression. Yes, there’s more stubborn – and less exciting – understeer through the long, fast corners where the GT3 is making you sweat with high-speed oversteer, but every time you make a critical correction in the Porsche the Nissan coolly steals a few more tenths of a second. The balance is neutral to nose-led, which sounds boring but isn’t, if only because you soon become addicted to the Nissan’s miraculous control and blinding pace. To drive it flat-out on a circuit – even one as wide and safe as Bedford – is to understand precisely how it can be so fast around the Nordschleife."
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"Oh it’s quick alright – quick enough to make Porsche’s 911 Turbo feel unexciting – but the GT-R’s real appeal is its adaptability. Punt it hard, really hard on a track and the GT-R responds, delivering searing pace, formidable control, a fine and perfectly judged balance and a wonderfully high level of feedback."
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"This GT-R story is about performance numbers, so we won’t dillydally: 60 mph is barbecued in 3.3 seconds, the quarter-mile in 11.5 seconds at 124 mph. Braking from 70 mph takes 145 feet, and skidpad runs are 0.99 g. Those are Olympic-qualifying stats. Indeed, with those results, the GT-R would have nuked our last $123,760 Porsche 911 Turbo and felled our last $404,410 Lambor¬ghini LP640 roadster."
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"Is the GT-R fun and involving, though? There’s a definite sense that it has been engineered and honed to make it’s spectacular performance and ground-covering pace exploitable. The car’s precision ride control, immense grip and incisive steering response help maintain its composure and instill confidence in a driver, yet they also connect you with what’s going on. You can feel the GT-R dealing with the road, the subtle shifts in its balance under power, the moment when the front has lost grip (quickly learning that keeping your foot in when that happens in the wet will bring a snap of oversteer requiring a stab of opposite lock). You can appreciate the steering response, but also how un-nervous the car feels when it snaps to an input. So while the GT-R doesn’t feel as dynamically malleable as, say,a 911 (and doesn’t need to be) or as deliciously tactile, it’s far from numb, far from inert."
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"Early reviewers have been almost unanimous in their praise for the Nissan GT-R's steering feel, proclaiming it unusually communicative for an all-wheel-drive car -- especially one wearing big fat 255/40R20 meats in front burdened with 55 percent of the total weight. It's certainly no Porsche in terms of steering feel, but it's darned close to the BMW standard when threading up the Angeles Crest Highway (or drifting on Mt. Fuji, one imagines). Nissan attributes this (and the GT-R's handling in general) to the high-precision six-point mounted front and rear subframes.
For track testing, we naturally set everything to "R" mode, which allowed plenty of slide for our figure-eight test without intervention. Switching it off merely afforded a more spectacular drift show, with no improvement in time."
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http://www.stuttgart9.co.uk/upload/showthread.php?t=5191
(A great write-up from a GT3 owner)
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And yes, of course there are reviews that don't agree with the above.
I can’t wait to see some independents give it a blast around the Ring to see what type of lap time it is REALLY capable of in production form…….and what BHP it puts out in such form too.
There is quite a bit of speculation on the BHP and even with GT-R's being dyno'ed right, left and center, nobody is putting a definitive figure on it because of the AWD loss, apart from Nissan who are sticking to the 480 (and their low friction bearings in the hubs and tranny equating to a hard-to believe less than 10% loss). Just have to wait until somebody rips out a production motor and sticks it on an engine dyno, I guess. Personally I'm more interested in that figure than a 'Ring time. If it's a good chunk higher than 480, you really have to look at Nissans motivation to state an untrue and lower figure. If they wanted to have people scratching their heads and in awe of the technical prowess ("How do they get something so big, so heavy with that bhp/ton figure to go so fast?") they've done it. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash.
You really think that we can drive fast nowadays? You're having a laugh surely. Mix traffic congestion, GATSOs, the PC lobby and Mr Astra (no you can't bloody pass me) together and that's what I see on most roads now.
I think that has a lot to do where each of us lives. Contrary to popular belief, North Wales is absolutely brilliant if you like a decent hoon If I spent the majority of my time in a major city, I would never consider a GT-R.
Funniest thing about them claiming to have beaten the Ring record is that both the Pagani Zonda (and this was a customer car so no funny business) and the Radical SR8 have both gone faster, the Radical achieving 6m55s.
I don't think Nissan have never claimed to break any record at the 'Ring in regards to the GT-R.
I disagree with your premise that he can't really comment, he is basing his opinion on having driven both cars so I suggest his summary is somewhat more objective than most peoples. Time will tell and I think you will find that he will take both around the Ring in due course.....mark my words.
Stating in a high circulation magazine that Nissan have been a bit sneaky and that the GT2 is going to be faster (which I agree with), I really don't think he's the best man to be taking both cars head-to-head around the 'Ring somehow. Should be interesting though.
merlin said:
Agreed it's an astonishing piece of work.
Just a shame most of it is electronic engineering genius, rather than mechanical!
I'm not sure 100% that is the case. New chassis and engine, a unique drivetrain layout for an AWD car, an astonishing gearbox by all acounts, brilliant aerodynamics etc. The 997 Turbo probably has just as much electronics as the GT-R, it's just that Nissan looks like it has raised the software bar.
Very jelous indeed!