Town and Country Parking Ltd.

I've done it twice. Once was nearly 2 years ago and I've heard nothing since. There is no legal basis to many of their claims and if there were, they would be a private matter between them and the DRIVER.

Not the registered keeper. And there is no legal obligation for the RK to reveal the driver to anyone but a police officer or an appointed council official.
 
So many people talking about the theory here. Who has actually done any of the things above such as "writing a letter to the debt collectors informing them of a dispute"... If it was that easy then surely you could do that for any debt?

You cant do that for every situation. In this case the car park operators have no actual debt to enforce, its not like a credit card defaultment... you cant use the dispute thing in cases like that. This is different, they want you to pay for something that they have no right to ( legally ) ask for. Passing it onto debt collectors is a ploy they use to scare people into paying.

The dispute thing works because you have not actually admitted any liability whatsoever, and they have not gotten a court to charge any, hence the collection agency will be breaking the law by chasing you for money that you do not ( legally ) owe!

If they want to get it as a proper debt they would have to goto court and win ( very VERY hard for them to do ) and then pass it on.
 
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So many people talking about the theory here. Who has actually done any of the things above such as "writing a letter to the debt collectors informing them of a dispute"... If it was that easy then surely you could do that for any debt?

I have - but I phoned the debt collectors. And yes, you could, as long as all the debts you are being chased for haven't been judged by the courts.
Basically, this means that if any company uses debt collectors to persistently demand money from you, which you don't think you owe, they are actually breaking the law themselves under the protection from harrassment act 1997 (I think). They have to go through the courts first and get a CCJ and only then can bailiffs get legally involved.

FYI: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/DebtsAndArrears/DG_10034289

I wrote this to my local newspaper a couple of months ago when car park fines made the front page. Apologies for the length and mod please delete if off topic.

I would like to reply to the article “Car Fines ‘a Cheat’“, Star, February 28. I have fallen foul of car park ‘fines’ before, which I successfully contested so far as I deemed them unfair and unlawful. I have learnt a lot since then and feel the need to inform readers who may be ignorant regarding their rights. It is therefore very unfortunate that Mr. Kempster paid the amount as I very much doubt debt collectors would have paid him a visit. Whilst I do not deny that there are many instances improper parking, the ‘fines’ issued are simply wrong.
First of all, any charge a vehicle owner receives from a private parking company (PPC) whom a store, retail park, supermarket, hospital or other business employ for car park management will not be a fine. It is merely an invoice which can be termed in a different of ways: Parking Charge Notice, Charge Notice, Notice to Owner, etc. It is completely different to a Penalty Charge Notice, which can only be issued by councils in their car parks or by the police and traffic wardens on the publicly maintained highway under the Road Traffic Act 1991. As it can be seen, the various terms used by PPCs are deliberately in a attempt to mislead and scare customers.
Legal and General, the car park owners, cannot themselves issue any fines. Only a court of criminal law can issue fines and this is a civil matter on privately owned land. Whilst UKPC will issue invoices on their behalf that appear quite threatening, most of the reasons for charges have no basis whatsoever in law.
The whole process is based on contract law, which basically relies on the driver reading signs in the vehicle park. By reading these signs, the driver agrees to enter a contract to pay a sum of money to park in a car park. Therefore, if signs are incorrect, broken or hidden, acceptance to the contract terms cannot be guaranteed.
If for some reason, the PPC deems the driver not adhering to the rules on the sign, it may issue an invoice on the vehicle. Alternatively, the PPC may simply take its registration, either via CCTV or its staff (wardens) and pay the DVLA £2.50 to get the registered keeper’s details. The PPC will then send an invoice to the latter.
The problem is that the driver of the vehicle at the time may not be the registered keeper and it is the driver who entered the contract in the first place, not the registered keeper. The registered keeper has no obligation to tell the PPC who was driving the vehicle at the time of the alleged infringement, and under civil law, there are no powers to force them to give up that information. Therefore the onus is on the PPC to prove who the driver of the vehicle was and send them the invoice. The PPC may claim that the registered keeper is responsible for the vehicle, regardless of who was driving but, under civil law, this is a lie. The registered keeper is therefore free to ignore any invoice if they do not want to contact the PPC.
If the matter does reach court, possible only once the PPC can prove the driver’s identity, the PPC would only be able to claim for any losses and reasonable expenses occurred from a breach of contract under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999 and related Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083., and in most car parks, that would only be a few pounds. In a free car park, this could be zero!
Usually, if the invoice is not paid, the PPC will continue to send threatening letters to the registered keeper mentioning debt collectors and how his/her credit rating will be affected. It may also put up the money due each time. This is all utter nonsense. Debt collectors (different from bailiffs) legally can do nothing more except ask for money. They have no powers such as bailiffs have. Even the latter can only act once the case has been lost in a county court and the charge remains unpaid thereafter. Therefore, if anyone is threatened by the use of bailiffs or debt collectors without having been to court, there is nothing to worry about.
Should debt collectors contact you, simply tell them that the invoice is in dispute and not to contact you anymore. They can do no more than take it back to the PPC. If they persist, you are fully entitled to report them under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997 and Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970.
I strongly urge readers not to feel intimidated regarding the matter. There is a wealth of information on the internet for readers to get acquainted with the facts above for themselves. The Consumer Action Group forums are very useful and in fact, provided a basis for me to write in.
 
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It really annoys me to see people parking in "dissabled / parent and toddler" bays who aren't entitled to do so, i think you should be fined for parking in them if not entitled to park there. I comes down to one thing and one thing only - laziness of the unentitled person parking there because they cant be bothered to walk the extra few meters from the main carpark area. If i had my way id have them towed !
 
Tell them where to go, I used to frequently park my HGV overnight on a Car Park that was patrolled by Town & Country, every night they used to ticket me, every morning I placed the ticket in the attendants bin in his little hut (much to his annoyance) telling him something along the lines of "This is my bothered face" :D - My offence was taking up more than one bay (free car park), its hardly surprising that a 54 odd ft long vehicle will take up a bit more than one space I suppose.....

They have not chased up any of the tickets, I wonder why? ;)

Ultimately, for every person who sticks two fingers up to these companies, there's one hell of a lot who don't and thats how they make money.
 
It really annoys me to see people parking in "dissabled / parent and toddler" bays who aren't entitled to do so, i think you should be fined for parking in them if not entitled to park there. I comes down to one thing and one thing only - laziness of the unentitled person parking there because they cant be bothered to walk the extra few meters from the main carpark area. If i had my way id have them towed !

I assume you'd enforce the same rule for all the disabled badge holders who are not actually disabled or those that have a badge for relatives and use it when they are not in the car etc etc etc. The hysteria around disability in this country makes me laugh how a blue badge entitles you to park on double yellow lines I have no idea and the free use of the seven bridge is really odd it's not like I have an alternative becasue I'm able bodied!

As for mother and baby spaces, they can walk round the supermarket for an hour or so but they can't walk an extra 20 yds to the door?!? pull the other one it's got bells on!
 
As for mother and baby spaces, they can walk round the supermarket for an hour or so but they can't walk an extra 20 yds to the door?!? pull the other one it's got bells on!

You obviously dont have any young children do you..otherwise you would actually understand the principle of the parent and toddler spaces.

Ever noticed that these spaces are extra wide?..nothing to do with the position in the car park, its about being able to fully open the door to get a small child out of the seat,and manouvre a pushchair if needed without actually damaging the car in the next space.

Your not really very bright are you..but dont worry that will change when you have kids.

:rolleyes:
 
Nice to see that some people are still advocating a complete lack of personal responsibility and a complete ignorance of property rights when it comes to parking...

Just pay the fine and take responsibility for not following simple instructions.

The courts really need to start respecting the rights of landowners more as well...
 
If the supermarket's weren't so stingy with normal parking space width (tesco are the worst) then there'd be no need for special parent and child parking.
 
Nice to see that some people are still advocating a complete lack of personal responsibility and a complete ignorance of property rights when it comes to parking...

Just pay the fine and take responsibility for not following simple instructions.

The courts really need to start respecting the rights of landowners more as well...

I do agree with this, Dolph, but some of the arrogance of the PPCs is astounding, still.

Companies like asda should staff their own carparks and not contract it out.
 
If PPCs didn't charge such unjustifiable extortionate prices, clampers practically extorting money, and thinking they can bully people into paying, I wouldn't have a problem with taking responsibility if I was wrong.
 
If PPCs didn't charge such unjustifiable extortionate prices, clampers practically extorting money, and thinking they can bully people into paying, I wouldn't have a problem with taking responsibility if I was wrong.

Is the £30 charge as per the OP unjustifiable? If it was much less, it wouldn't be punative...

The clampers are frequently guilty of horrific charges though I will agree.
 
You obviously dont have any young children do you..otherwise you would actually understand the principle of the parent and toddler spaces.

Ever noticed that these spaces are extra wide?..nothing to do with the position in the car park, its about being able to fully open the door to get a small child out of the seat,and manouvre a pushchair if needed without actually damaging the car in the next space.

Your not really very bright are you..but dont worry that will change when you have kids.

:rolleyes:

Ignoring the childish insults and the pointless rolleyes, I do realise there purpose I just don't understand why they are always in the most convenient spot for people who just want to pop in for 5 minutes to buy a pint of milk and why if there all empty I should spend 15 minutes driving round looking for a normal space.

In reponse to your weird thing about when I'm a parent I'll somehow be cleverer and understand, I'll just say my parents (and a generation or two like them) coped when there was no such thing as mum and baby spaces and loads of places still don't have them so I think I'll survive.
 
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In reponse to your weird thing about when I'm a parent I'll understand, I'll just say my parents (and a generation or two like them) coped when there was no such thing as mum and baby spaces and loads of places still don't have them so I think I'll survive.

Cars have grown in size faster than spaces have, and laws mandating restraints and child seats have changed significantly since most of us were children. Presumably you'd be the first to complain if they hit your car with the door while getting the child out of the legally required seat now?
 
Is the £30 charge as per the OP unjustifiable? If it was much less, it wouldn't be punative...

But Punative damages were ruled as unlawful and immoral in the banking industry with regards to bank charges. Actual cost of the infraction is meant to be the motivating reason behind penalty charges.

Banks and PPC's both work within the same aspect of consumer and contract law. So If you were to be in a £1.20 per hour car park and had parked in two bays for an hour, or over stayed in a parking bay an hour, the actual cost of infraction will only be the potential loss of earnings.

A free car park means no loss, so no damages.
 
Ignoring the childish insults and the pointless rolleyes, I do realise there purpose I just don't understand why they are always in the most convenient spot for people who just want to pop in for 5 minutes to buy a pint of milk and why if there all empty I should spend 15 minutes driving round looking for a normal space.

In reponse to your weird thing about when I'm a parent I'll somehow be cleverer and understand, I'll just say my parents (and a generation or two like them) coped when there was no such thing as mum and baby spaces and loads of places still don't have them so I think I'll survive.

It wasnt an insult..merely an observation, sorry if you took it as an insult. Niether was the rolleyes pointless, it seems to have communicated perfectly my initial response upon reading your post, that pleases me greatly.

The placement of the parking spaces is decided by the supermarket themselves...not the user, perhaps you should write to tesco and asdas etc with your complaint. Perhaps the supermarkets decided that the nearer they put young children to the entrance the less chance of there being a terrible accident in the carpark..just a thought.

As for your comment regarding popping in for 5 minutes for a pint of milk..are you suggesting that the supermarkets put a minimum time of 1 hour on these spots for disabled people and those with toddlers? Surely the amount of time that shoppers spend in the supermarket is irrelevant?

Dolph is correct in his response to you about previous generations so no point in going over old ground on that one.

Clearly you are one of the selfish/lazy people that seems to be in abundance in this world and though not illegal, it is fustrating and disapointing for the rest of us.

Although I wish the lady who was the reason this thread started all the best in getting away with her fine, part of me also wishes she was clamped/towed away and fined heavily for her utter contemp and lact of respect for her fellow human beings.
 
But Punative damages were ruled as unlawful and immoral in the banking industry with regards to bank charges. Actual cost of the infraction is meant to be the motivating reason behind penalty charges.

Banks and PPC's both work within the same aspect of consumer and contract law. So If you were to be in a £1.20 per hour car park and had parked in two bays for an hour, or over stayed in a parking bay an hour, the actual cost of infraction will only be the potential loss of earnings.

A free car park means no loss, so no damages.

As I said, complete refusal to take responsibility to follow simple instructions from the landowners...
 
If its a case of a quiet time and most disabled spaces are free and you are going in quickly, whats the problem?
I do it when popping to starbucks at the local sainsburys as its got loads of disabled bays that generally are never even 50% full.
 
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