Virgin's New STM Policy

[Amnesia]

VM are not making enough money to keep up with growing demands on infrastructure.. they need to draw the line (are in their rights to do so). Piracy is making matters worse.

that still doesnt explain why he isnt paying enough when he is paying the advertised price for the service advertised.

 

[Dano]

Thats life m8 ...I think you'll find they are well within legal rights. If they are not then fair play, see them in court, but good luck with that.

No, it's only life if we as consumers do nothing about it, your attitude of apathy is exactly what leads to this sort of situation where companies feel they can do what the hell they like and get away with it. If they were well within their legal rights they would hold people to contract, I'd put money on me being able to call them now and cancel with over nine months of contract left due to them not wanting it to become a legal issue as they know they will lose.

Lucky thing for us is we are consumers, we can shop around.. just find another service.

We as consumers need to let them know we will not tolerate this sort of behaviour, as such yes shopping around does work to a degree, but only if other services indeed pick up the slack with true unlimited services or at the least well designed STM schemes that do actually only affect illegal users.

I think VM is still pretty good, and from my experience with them and NTL have been far better in most respects to the fiasco that is DSL.

Whish is why it is critical that VM are made to see the error of their ways.

 

[Flukester]

haha yet more guess work. when was the last time you had lunch with v.m's bank manager?



how the hell would you know how that what virgin media are making , isn't enough.?

I'm assuming they are still loss making, but if making a profit, and a fat one then fair play... before the takover NTL was running at a huge operational loss.

 

[Flukester]

No, it's only life if we as consumers do nothing about it, your attitude of apathy is exactly what leads to this sort of situation where companies feel they can do what the hell they like and get away with it. If they were well within their legal rights they would hold people to contract, I'd put money on me being able to call them now and cancel with over nine months of contract left due to them not wanting it to become a legal issue as they know they will lose.



We as consumers need to let them know we will not tolerate this sort of behaviour, as such yes shopping around does work to a degree, but only if other services indeed pick up the slack with true unlimited services or at the least well designed STM schemes that do actually only affect illegal users.



Whish is why it is critical that VM are made to see the error of their ways.

As consumers make your point by switching to another provider. Don't just go on a anti VM crusade.

Apathy in some cases is the best idea... life is too short to put up with a bad service and just whine about it. In this case VM still offer good value for money.. and you'd prolly be shooting yaself in foot by jumping ship.

If enough people leave them in discust, they will soon learn themselves mistakes that have been made.. they just want customers who pay every month money into their bank, how happy you are is not really a issue to them, up to a point.. that point being when their subscibers fall in number.

 

[Dano]

As consumers make your point by switching to another provider. Don't just go on a anti VM crusade.

Did you even read what I posted?

Apathy in some cases is the best idea... life is too short to put up with a bad service and just whine about it. In this case VM still offer good value for money.. and you'd prolly be shooting yaself in foot by jumping ship.

Whine? who's whining? in case you hadn't noticed this is a discussion forum for discussing things.

 

[Amnesia]

As consumers make your point by switching to another provider. Don't just go on a anti VM crusade.

Apathy in some cases is the best idea... life is too short to put up with a bad service and just whine about it. In this case VM still offer good value for money.. and you'd prolly be shooting yaself in foot by jumping ship.

i always though it was a good idea to discuss in forums and share your experience so others can learn what a company is like before they join.

btw wouldnt someone be shooting vm in the foot if they left

i left over a year ago and cant honestly say ive felt a bullet wound

 

[Dogoid]

before the takover NTL was running at a huge operational loss.

ok can you prove this? prove it right now , il be waiting .


" huge operational loss "



hey it may be true, but i want to work out how founded/unfounded your statements are.


your the type of person that reads something , takes it at face value and then repeats it as if it were your own information.




so ill be waiting for the proof

 

[Dogoid]

Apathy in some cases is the best idea

 

[Flukester]

ok can you prove this? prove it right now , il be waiting .


" huge operational loss "



hey it may be true, but i want to work out how founded/unfounded your statements are.


your the type of person that reads something , takes it at face value and then repeats it as if it were your own information.




so ill be waiting for the proof

Stolen from wiki... they were in massive trouble, i remember the problems at the time in the news and media on the web like the register. Guess im the kinda person who reads about the IT world everyday and takes notice, it's my job so I have to . I'm no expert though.. everyone repeats information they hear, it's how we learn stuff, I try to repeat only what seems reliable info though .


Barclay Knapp and George Blumenthal, the founders of the cellular network company Cellular Communications, Inc. (sold to Airtouch in 1996), established International CableTel in 1993. They founded CableTel in order to take advantage of the deregulation of the UK cable market. Initially, Cabletel acquired local cable-franchises covering Guildford, Northern Ireland and parts of Central Scotland and South Wales. In 1996 CableTel acquired National Transcommunications Limited (NTL), the privatised UK Independent Broadcasting Authority transmission-network. In 1998 CableTel adopted "NTL" as its new name.

The company spent heavily on expanding its network and on acquisitions — including the consumer cable division of Cable and Wireless, bought for $10bn, and partly paid for with a $5.5bn investment from France Telecom. NTL also began to expand outside the UK in 2000, buying into markets on continental Europe and in Ireland.

A collapse of the telecommunications markets from mid-2000 dealt a serious blow to the company. This, combined with NTL's rapid acquisition of local cable-operators, led to severe problems of integration. NTL, struggling to cope with rapid expansion and suffering from significant customer-service problems, then had to contend with the setting up in November 2002 of one of the UK's first consumer lobby-groups, nthellworld, with ntl:hell following shortly after.

Devalued and struggling with debts of around $18bn, NTL had to seek Chapter-11 bankruptcy-protection in May 2002 in order to organise a refinancing deal. The company did not emerge from protection until January 2003, having converted around $11 billion of debt into shares. Technically, this amounted to the largest debt default in US corporate history. The company reduced its debt to $6.4bn. A re-organisation split NTL itself into NTL Inc. (covering the UK and Irish markets) and NTL Europe Inc. (for the French, Swiss and German parts of the corporation). New executives replaced the NTL president, CEO and co-founder Barclay Knapp, as well as Stephen A. Carter, the MD and COO.

After exiting from Chapter-11 protection, NTL produced an operating profit. In 2004 it announced plans to split its broadcasting division off from the main company. In December 2004 NTL sold its broadcast-unit to a consortium led by Macquarie Communications Infrastructure Group (MCG) for £1.27 billion. (Macquarie renamed the division Arqiva in May 2005.) This sale allowed NTL to focus on its "core businesses" of providing communications packages and cable-services.

In autumn 2004 NTL purchased the remaining shares of the Internet service provider (ISP) virgin.net, originally a joint venture between NTL and Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Group.[4]

By 2005 NTL's UK network consisted of a 7,800 km fibre backbone with the potential to reach 8.4 million residential homes and around 610,000 businesses. In January of that year, NTL started rolling out Video On Demand. With content selected by NTL, this service covered genres including music videos, children's programming and adult entertainment. This provided an extension to the basic "pay per view" services the company offered for film and sport content. The new service allowed customers to rewind, fast-forward and pause content.

Despite NTL Ireland turning a profit, in May 2005, NTL sold its Dublin, Galway and Waterford cable-business — which it had acquired in 1999 for €825 million from the Irish government-owned entities Telecom Éireann (60% of shares) and RTE (40% of shares) — to UGC Europe for €325 million; this after having spent in excess of €100 million on network infrastructure. Thus NTL made a gross loss of €500 million (more than 50%) over what it had paid. As of May 2007 Liberty continues to use the NTL brand in Ireland, under license.

By July 2005, NTL had cut its debt to £1.445 billion, with an operating cashflow of £178 million. The company had 3.2 million customers buying at least one service from it, with the 1.4 million subscribers to broadband services making NTL the market leader in this field.

 

[Dogoid]

LONDON -- NTL Incorporated (NASDAQ: NTLI) today reported its fourth quarter and year end results for 2004.
Highlights of Continuing Operations
Financial Highlights
--2004 revenue up 5.7 per cent to GBP 2,074 million

--Up 5.3 per cent to GBP 532 million vs. Q4 2003

--2004 Operating income before depreciation, amortization and other charges (OCF) increased 12.0 per cent to GBP 695 million

--Up 4.7 per cent to GBP 182 million vs. Q4 2003

--2004 Operating loss improved by 79.7 per cent to GBP (39) million

--Improved 88.6 per cent to GBP (6.4) million vs. Q4 2003

--OCF margin and adjusted OCF margin (or underlying margin)* in Q4 at 34 per cent and 36 per cent respectively
Operational Highlights
--Strong gross adds in Q4 of 185,200 (162,100 on-net) in line with previous four quarters

--2004 consumer revenue up 8.7 per cent to GBP 1,508 million

--Up 7.5 per cent to GBP 391 million vs. Q4 2003

--Q4 on-net ARPU of GBP 42.40

--On-net broadband growth of 71,800 in Q404, full year growth of 31 per cent

--Triple play on-net penetration of 24.0 per cent, up 3.4 points vs. Q4 2003
Corporate Highlights

--Free Cash Flow improved to GBP 61 million for full year 2004 vs. GBP (26) million for 2003

--Net cash provided by operating activities improved to GBP 385.3 million for the full year 2004 compared with GBP 318.8 million for 2003.

--Broadcast business sold for GBP 1.27 billion

--Used proceeds to prepay GBP 500 million of debt and announced intention
to effect the purchase of our common stock in any amount up to GBP 475 million


Commenting on the results, Simon Duffy, Chief Executive Officer of ntl, said: "ntl underwent major organisational changes in 2004, with almost every part of the business being restructured. It therefore gives me particular pleasure to report that, despite this upheaval, the company performed very well with underlying margins for the group as a whole, including Broadcast, rising to 37 per cent in Q4. For continuing operations alone, they rose to 36 per cent. We considerably strengthened and improved the operational base of the company, reinforcing our ability to continue to grow profitably.
After implementing major systems improvements in 2004 and aggressively removing delinquent or non-paying customers from our customer count, we expect to add over 200,000 customers on-net this year, including a further 20-25 per cent increase in our broadband customer base.
The sale of Broadcast and the acquisition of virgin.net mark significant changes in the company's strategic profile and, along with the operational improvements, position it well for the next stage of development. The whole company will remain focused on driving increases in shareholder value in 2005.

 

[Dano]

All that shows me is that they were in trouble but rapidly approaching a situation where they would be in a good profit earning state. Bearing in mind the costs of having to install the backbone which NTL paid for all Virgin are now doing is reaping the profits and as such it is highly unlikely that VM are running their cable services at anything like a loss.

Having said that, I'm not good at corporate figures and finance so I could be talking absolute rubbish

 

[Flukester]

Having said that, I'm not good at corporate figures and finance so I could be talking absolute rubbish

hehe, me 2, I wouldn't know good cash flow if it hit me round head with a bat.. all I remember was they filed for bankruptsy protection, and that is a bad thing.

 

[Metalface Mark]

Well done for missing the point.

My point was valid and well put, the majority of users will only see a benefit from this service, i downloaded the crysis patch last night, it was about 670mb and for the first time i got full speed in the evenings, it nearly brought a tear to my eye.

The simple thing to is vote with your feet, when your contract is up, then move along. As someone who has been crippled with terrible speeds since joining virgin, its a revelation to be able to use youtube in the evenings, i know this should never have been the case in the first instance, but it unfortunately was, and after 6 hellish months, i can hopefully at least relax for the final 6 before reassessing.

I only download legal software/videos/music at home and i have never downloaded anywhere near enough to get capped.

 

[Metalface Mark]

No, it's only life if we as consumers do nothing about it, your attitude of apathy is exactly what leads to this sort of situation where companies feel they can do what the hell they like and get away with it. If they were well within their legal rights they would hold people to contract, I'd put money on me being able to call them now and cancel with over nine months of contract left due to them not wanting it to become a legal issue as they know they will lose.



We as consumers need to let them know we will not tolerate this sort of behaviour, as such yes shopping around does work to a degree, but only if other services indeed pick up the slack with true unlimited services or at the least well designed STM schemes that do actually only affect illegal users.



Whish is why it is critical that VM are made to see the error of their ways.

Hmm, if you have 9 months left, you would already have been aware of the traffic management that virgin had in place, this was in place when i joined some 6 months back.

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html

 

[Dano]

My point was valid and well put, the majority of users will only see a benefit from this service, i downloaded the crysis patch last night, it was about 670mb and for the first time i got full speed in the evenings, it nearly brought a tear to my eye.

No it wasn't valid or well put, it blatantly does NOT only affect illegal users and making gross generalisations like you did just serves to make you look narrow minded.

The simple thing to is vote with your feet, when your contract is up, then move along.

Did you want read the rest of the thread before jumping in?

As someone who has been crippled with terrible speeds since joining virgin, its a revelation to be able to use youtube in the evenings, i know this should never have been the case in the first instance, but it unfortunately was, and after 6 hellish months, i can hopefully at least relax for the final 6 before reassessing.

Why didn't you take your own advice then and vote with your feet? A contract works both ways you know and as such you can terminate it for VM not living up their end.

I only download legal software/videos/music at home and i have never downloaded anywhere near enough to get capped.

Great for you, it does not however mean that others are NOT capped for their normal useage.

 

[Dano]

Hmm, if you have 9 months left, you would already have been aware of the traffic management that virgin had in place, this was in place when i joined some 6 months back.

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html

Wrong again, I've been with VM since they took over from NTL and was with NTL for a few years before that. What you obviously do not know is that everytime you change your package in the slightest they tie you into another twelve month contract.

 

[Werewolf]

But when they announce a change in service, such as this change in STM it also gives you a get out clause...it's the same with most/all mobile phone companies, if they announce your contract bill is going up they have to give you a chance to leave without penalty (they've changed the terms of the service, thus have yo give you a chance to pull out).

 

[Metalface Mark]

No it wasn't valid or well put, it blatantly does NOT only affect illegal users and making gross generalisations like you did just serves to make you look narrow minded.

I doubt any legal downloaders would get their panties in a bunch about it, how often do people download more than 1.2gb legally each evening? Id guess once in a blue moon and you well know it.

Did you want read the rest of the thread before jumping in?

I read the thread, i dont understand what point you are trying to make other than trying to belittle me.

Why didn't you take your own advice then and vote with your feet? A contract works both ways you know and as such you can terminate it for VM not living up their end.

I tried, however unless you recieve something stupid like under 200kbps they say this is within limits, in the end i reduced my package from 8mb to 2mb as i primarily wanted to game, and the 8mb service was unusable for me due to poor pings.

Great for you, it does not however mean that others are NOT capped for their normal useage.

As I said, while its possible people will be capped, its the heavy illegal downloaders that are going to be up in arms about this. There is also still nothing to stop these people downloading in offpeak times.

If you want to see a crippled service, try AOL, if you downloaded over your limit you got capped at 512kb for the rest of the month and had to spend a full month without going over limits to get full speed back.

 

[Metalface Mark]

But when they announce a change in service, such as this change in STM it also gives you a get out clause...it's the same with most/all mobile phone companies, if they announce your contract bill is going up they have to give you a chance to leave without penalty (they've changed the terms of the service, thus have yo give you a chance to pull out).

They had previously put the traffic management in Werewolf where people did have a get out clause, in that change of terms and conditions they reserved the right to muck about with the traffic management (see the older link i posted above).

 

[Dano]

I doubt any legal downloaders would get their panties in a bunch about it, how often do people download more than 1.2gb legally each evening? Id guess once in a blue moon and you well know it.

I am a legal downloader and I am annoyed by it. Each evening? what has each evening got to do with it? Again, had you read the thread you may have seen me already make comments on that.

I read the thread, i dont understand what point you are trying to make other than trying to belittle me.

I'm not trying to belittle you at all, just pointing out that I've already made my stance on that clear.

I tried, however unless you recieve something stupid like under 200kbps they say this is within limits, in the end i reduced my package from 8mb to 2mb as i primarily wanted to game, and the 8mb service was unusable for me due to poor pings.

You didn't try hard enough then IMHO.

As I said, while its possible people will be capped, its the heavy illegal downloaders that are going to be up in arms about this. There is also still nothing to stop these people downloading in offpeak times.

Sorry, but in my honest opinion you are way off the mark there.

If you want to see a crippled service, try AOL, if you downloaded over your limit you got capped at 512kb for the rest of the month and had to spend a full month without going over limits to get full speed back.

I don't, this thread is discussing the VM service.