This is very important. The soviets were in place to march across Europe, soon with nuclear arsenal. A nuclear war would have annihilated most of Europe.
The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 250.000 people and became
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This is very important. The soviets were in place to march across Europe, soon with nuclear arsenal. A nuclear war would have annihilated most of Europe.
In war, no one is innocent, there are no civilians. If you support a country then you support its military. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were valid military targets as they were large industrial towns producing the goods required for the Japanese war machine. They were amongst the few targets of large enough population to make the operation successful, after the firebombings had destroyed almost everything else..
The Japanese killed 23 million Chinese. The Chinese had been supporting the Allies for a decade. IT would be inhuman to let the Japanese do what they want with the rest of Asia. Thank god the Allies had the balls not to cower away and let our friends nations be tortured, raped, murdered and bred out of existence.
Because the Japanese were killing 100,000 Asians every single month, regardless of what the Allies were doing on Japan.
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Although the after effects of the two bombings seem harsh in tems of deaths over the years they are only a small proportion of the deaths that are still happening since WW2. Even people who never left their own country or had any kind of bomb or other weapon within a hundrerd miles of them are dying as a result of the war. This can be from anything like very bad diet from the effects of rationing and food shortages to poisoning from substances they worked with in the war effort industry.
If you also take into account all the deaths from wounds and other after effects like stress and loss of family or friends. Also a thousand other differing complications that could be linked to WW2 you would probably see a 2nd death toll from WW2 that would exceed anyones expectations. This 2nd death toll would be global from any and every country involved but the harsh reality is a war ends and still claims its victims generations away from the event.
Due to the nature of modern war you yourself could be the carrier of DNA that one day causes a cancer or illness. That damaged DNA could have been damaged by a chemical or radiation or any number of factors stemming from events your grandparents were part of.
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Those (more than 4 by the way) soldiers were not elite special forces, they were normal conscripts, that they may fight on for decades over a forgotten patch of jungle is perfect illustration that thousands more of their comrades would have fought and were ready to fight on over the Japanese home islands.
So, this discussion is getting silly now is it ? Is that because all these documented facts are becoming tiresome ? Getting in the way of opinion ?
Caporegime
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Again, that just reeks of poo tbh. Suicide tactics don't somehow mean every japanese person in their Army wanted to die, it was simply a weapon, its not like that group of people woke up in the morning, asked their commander if they could die today and were upset when they were told there was no target. To a certain degree there wasn't much else they had in the way of weapons to take down big ships. Miltary leaders, just like anyone else would simply have followed their orders, to say they wouldn't have gone for unconditional surrender is just ridiculous, you can NOT know that. Except, didn't they stop fighting later, when told to?
The number of people Japan had killed to that point, is fairly irrelevant, how many people had died from German forces by our hand, its not justification to not contact them. While this wasn't an age of e-mail and mobile phones, I still can't see how contact couldn't have been made in the space of hours, maybe a day or two with a message of, respond, cease going forwards on all fronts without 2 days or something, or we'll oblitorate two of your citys. if there was no attempt at contact, its just wrong. They strongest point to be made is Japan had seen they weren't going to win or would not have offered any type of surrender, so their leaders were neither crazy, stupid or wanted to die. All three of those things suggest they would almost certainly be willing to surrender if given the chance.
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The Japanese soldier was one thing a fighting machine very few would ever surrender. Surrender is unthinkable to them it is part of the culture of Japan that it is better to die loosing than live at all. Even Japanese women on the home islands that were invaded would on many occasions rather kill their own children and babies then take their own lives than be overun by the americans. That is a very frightening thought but the propaganda aimed at civilians by the Japanese government showed that when the americans came they would kill the children and rape and kill the women.
On the Okinawa chain of Islands particularly the main island of Okinawa the suicide of women who also killed their children was very common. I do not mention the suicide of men but this happened also. The reason I mention the suicide of women who would kill their children is so some may gain an insight into the mindset of the Japanese of the time. If women on the Okinawa islands were prepared to do such things 340 miles away from the main Japanese islands how fanatical would the fight have been were the main islands of Japan to be invaded.
These facts also give an insight into the Japanese soldier, a woman would kill her own children not to give in to the americans how hard would the soldier fight. The evidence is there for anyone to find a Japanese soldier would be lethal to his dying breath and would never surrender despite wounds, odds, lack of supplies or amunition.
The war was dirty and never can be changed but the atom bombs ended it. The rights and wrongs are not for us to judge our technology would have made a different outcome. Our technology makes us think of tactics that were not there for the americans to use because the technology we have did not exist. We can look back and say we should have shown the Japanese the bombs, an airburst off the coast and say its on your head next. But the bombs took so long to make as the enrichment process for the materials was in its infancy. The enrichment process was so hard and produced so little that wasting the bombs by not hitting a target would have been unthinkable to the leaders of the time.
On the Okinawa chain of Islands particularly the main island of Okinawa the suicide of women who also killed their children was very common. I do not mention the suicide of men but this happened also. The reason I mention the suicide of women who would kill their children is so some may gain an insight into the mindset of the Japanese of the time. If women on the Okinawa islands were prepared to do such things 340 miles away from the main Japanese islands how fanatical would the fight have been were the main islands of Japan to be invaded.
These facts also give an insight into the Japanese soldier, a woman would kill her own children not to give in to the americans how hard would the soldier fight. The evidence is there for anyone to find a Japanese soldier would be lethal to his dying breath and would never surrender despite wounds, odds, lack of supplies or amunition.
The war was dirty and never can be changed but the atom bombs ended it. The rights and wrongs are not for us to judge our technology would have made a different outcome. Our technology makes us think of tactics that were not there for the americans to use because the technology we have did not exist. We can look back and say we should have shown the Japanese the bombs, an airburst off the coast and say its on your head next. But the bombs took so long to make as the enrichment process for the materials was in its infancy. The enrichment process was so hard and produced so little that wasting the bombs by not hitting a target would have been unthinkable to the leaders of the time.
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Caporegime
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So because of all of that, that means a Japanese soldier, without a target would commit a suicide attack against...........
A woman has been most likely bombarded with propaganda that the evil army coming will rape and kill everyone and steal everything they have, a woman scared of that may take hers and her childrens lives to prevent that but even so.
That doesn't mean a Army, thats surrendered will all simply run out and suicide bomb the nearest target. Disobeying an order would also be just as dishonourable as you guys seem to think, and so given the order to stand down, they would, to think otherwise is just ridiculously following what films have said about the culture and be completely unable to distinguish between different circumstances. Theres honour fighting with your army against an evil army, which is how every army see's the other side. Theres no honour in killing yourself in a blaze of glory to take out soldiers who are no longer your enemy, its the opposite, there is no honour, it would be a cowardly attack on a normal man at that point.
Again, all your theories of, "they would never surrender....honour....suicide killings....." really mean nothing as, after the bombs, they could have gone on and killed more, but their leader surrendered, the order was passed down, and everyone stopped fighting. Did you notice, the stop fighting part.
Both BEFORE and after the bombings the country knew it had lost and they didn't want a long term bloody land invasion either, why would they? Offering surrender before the bombs, so they obviously 100% knew they would lose and didn't want mass casualties on their homeland, means the situation bar a couple hundred thousand people, hadn't actually changed, for them.
They'd never surrender, except they offered, and did after the bombs, so that theory is useless.
Their soldiers wouldn't surrender, except they offered, and did.
Well, personally, i think all your arguments against them being unwilling to surrender, are great, however, history, the facts, and the facts and the history say thats a 100% wrong assumption.
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Ok I'm only half way through reading this - some interesting points, some closed people on both sides of the river tbh.
Just a quickie, I know this question is about a different point of the war in more ways than one, but what was Britain's relationship with Poland that caused Neville to declare war against Germany?
Just a quickie, I know this question is about a different point of the war in more ways than one, but what was Britain's relationship with Poland that caused Neville to declare war against Germany?
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So do you think the children who died shouldn't be classed as civilians?
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On March 31, 1939, in response to Nazi Germany's defiance of the Munich Agreement and occupation of Czechoslovakia, the United Kingdom pledged the support of itself and France to guarantee Polish independence.
I get irritated by people that always use "more of them then us" as justification.
Wars are fought by ordinary men and women because often a small group of narrow minded people cannot settle disputes. A massive amount of people died. It was a tragic, disgusting and abhorrent loss of life in what was a flex of muscle and show of power from the US, whatever you believe the justifications to be.
Given the benefit of hindsight and time, what side they were on should not matter one bit.
What a stupid and ignorant post.
They WERE offered the chance to surrender via the Potsdam declaration in July.
They DIDN'T.
What is so hard to understand about that ?
Man of Honour
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Japan did offer surrender but on its own terms which were unacceptable to the allies. Attempts were made to negotiate via the russians right upto Augut the 2nd before the first atomic device was used. Japan would not accept unconditional surrender of its armed forces as declared in part of the Potsdam declaration on the 26th of July 1945.
On July 26, the United States, Britain, and China released the Potsdam Declaration, announcing the terms for Japan's surrender, with the warning, "We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."
the elimination "for all time [of] the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest"
the occupation of "points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies"
"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943, Japan was to be stripped of her pre-war empire, including Korea and Taiwan, as well as all her recent conquests.
"The Japanese military forces shall be completely disarmed"
"stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners"
But on the other hand,
"We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, ... The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established."
"Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, ... Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted."
"The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
The only mention of "unconditional surrender" came at the end:
"We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."
The declaration an opertunity for surrender before the destruction of the entire Japanese nation was treated with contempt and ignored with the resolution that Japan would continue with the war until totally defeated. So if you claim Japan was willing to surrender under allied terms this is wrong. Japan would only surrender under her own terms which was not acceptable to the allies.
Surrender happened after the nuclear attacks for the following reasons stated by the emperor in a broadcast to the Japanses nation.
"... Despite the best that has been done by everyone — the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people — the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.
...
Even after acceptance of the terms of surrender some high ranking Japanese officers attempted a coup to try and gain military control and continue the war.
You have to realise that the Japanese people were bred for honour, for the Japanese way of life. That they are superior to any other race because their leader is descended from Gods.
Clearly this is wrong, but you cannot fault a people for acting on instincts that are bred into it. The Japanese couldn't accept the allies terms of surrender, because it involved removing the Emperor. And this would not be just an unacceptable loss of face, it would be firstly an affront to their heritage, but quite simply - due to their breeding - an impossibility.
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Plus the Japanese had never had a military defeat until WW2, If I remember correctly.