Legal issues with 2nd-hand PC games

FoxEye

FoxEye

FoxEye

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I'm interested in seeing what you guys think about what I'm doing, and whether or not it's legal and/or acceptable.

For any game with DRM, especially SecuROM, I will buy but not install from the DVD. I'll install it from *ahem* other sources.

Now, as far as I can see, this isn't a problem as long as I never sell the game on (as 2nd hand).

For one, I've bypassed the install limits that many games now have. Ie, I haven't used any of my permitted 3 installs. Which means when I sell the game on, it's effectively new and not used. I'll sell it as used, but I'm still not going to install it just so I can use 1 of my 3 installs, again because I'm not allowing SecuROM anywhere near my machine.

If the intention of the Publisher is to make infinate re-sale impossible, then I'm breaking the license agreement. Is that the same as breaking the law? Does UK law allow infinate re-sale?

With OEM Windows, for instance, the CD is tied to the mobo. But you can, AFAIK, resell the mobo+OEM CD as many times as you like.

Now I'd like to continue re-selling my games, because I'm not well-off enough to just keep everything I buy. But I'd prefer not to be breaking the law when I do it :p

So should I be losing any sleep over this? Or is it more important that I bought the thing in the first place, rather than any worry about avoiding re-sale agreements?
 
I, personally, wouldn't loose any sleep over this. Technically I can see it is breaking the law (bypassing security is a no-no and reselling is also a very grey area).

However if they came to your house and checked your PC then they would see you have the DVD there so surely this would count in your favour.

At the end of the day the publishers getting there cash so I don't see the harm in it.


M.
 
Interesting there is no scope within UK Contract Law for the provision of a contract retrospectively. There is case law to support this - Somebodyorother v Brighton Council. The guy rented a deckchair and injured himself. The council pointed out on the back of his ticket it says they accept no liability - but you dont get the ticket until you've paid - and in the UK a contract is formed/agreed to at point of purchase. Therefore any additional terms you later find are retrospective, which are not permissable.

I suspect it'll take a court case to see how far this applies to software licensing but the principle is very similar. You don't get to see the agreement until after you've bought the game (The fact its on the website or whatever is not good enough)..
 
I dont understand this stance.

You downloaded pirated games (illegal) but buy the games you pirate (not illegal), but worry whether or not its legal to sell the games you havent played?

The only illegal bit is the piracy issue in the first place, which you dont have a problem with.
 
Well, you see the situation arises because I'm not exactly sure what I've bought.

If I bought a license to play the game, as many companies now say you do, then where I get the actual files from shouldn't matter. I have a legally obtained license, acquired when I bought the game.

I'm not sure, because I haven't read it, whether the license stipulates that I must use the DVD as my install medium.

If on the other hand I'm buying a copy of the game on a DVD, then I'd expect to be able to re-sell that copy. However the way the DVD itself works prevents us from re-selling it.

The situation we have at the moment gives us a license, and/or a physical medium, but doesn't seem to allow us to re-sell either legally.

As said above, it seems to be one big grey area.
 
Metalface Mark said:
I dont understand this stance.

You downloaded pirated games (illegal) but buy the games you pirate (not illegal), but worry whether or not its legal to sell the games you havent played?

The only illegal bit is the piracy issue in the first place, which you dont have a problem with.
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Well no, he's brought the game...but doesn't SecuROM all over his system, which is fair enough, cause neither do I really, but I have it now.

But he's downloaded the games that he has brought, so he can play them cracked without having anything 'tied' to his system...which again is fair enough, I don't see what's illegal about selling on your old games.

The problem is, downloading the game, is in fact illegal, even if you own the original material...

It's a weird area...as he isn't hurting the industry...well, he sort of is, as he's fuelling the original pirates need.
 
The problem is your installing illegal material...sites like fileplanet that have the direct to drive feature...are not illegal, even if the license and everything with it is in digital format.
 
Delvis said:
The problem is your installing illegal material...sites like fileplanet that have the direct to drive feature...are not illegal, even if the license and everything with it is in digital format.
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Even D2D and STEAM releases come supplied with SecuROM now. And even D2D and Steam have limited install mechanics.

Additionally, you cannot resell a Steam or D2D purchased game, without selling your entire Steam account, which is against the terms and conditions. Hence I don't buy anything from Steam. I want to re-sell my old games.

STEAM's own DRM I can live with, but SecuROM and StarForce are as well? That's horrible.
 
my main reason for doing what you do is so i can play without having the dvd in the drive, its got to the point now with copy protection that it is easier and more user friendly to play the pirate version instead
 
FoxEye said:
Even D2D and STEAM releases come supplied with SecuROM now. And even D2D and Steam have limited install mechanics.

Additionally, you cannot resell a Steam or D2D purchased game, without selling your entire Steam account, which is against the terms and conditions. Hence I don't buy anything from Steam. I want to re-sell my old games.

STEAM's own DRM I can live with, but SecuROM and StarForce are as well? That's horrible.
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Yeah I know, but getting them like that is legal :)

Downloading them of a torrent site is not...as the original code (or whatever part) has been tampered with so that the SecuROM/Starforce elements have been removed.

I personally would LOVE for these install limits to not be in place on most games...luckily some publishers release uninstallation tools that give you your current install back...But still, I hate the way they install stuff in the first place.

It would be nice if you could buy a 'license' of a game...then download a version, using your license number (Thieves can never obtain a cracked version, as it's on the companys servers...unless the server was hacked obviously), from they're servers...that doesn't have the SecuROM elements...obviously that would never happen.
 
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Delvis said:
Well no, he's brought the game...but doesn't SecuROM all over his system, which is fair enough, cause neither do I really, but I have it now.

But he's downloaded the games that he has brought, so he can play them cracked without having anything 'tied' to his system...which again is fair enough, I don't see what's illegal about selling on your old games.

The problem is, downloading the game, is in fact illegal, even if you own the original material...

It's a weird area...as he isn't hurting the industry...well, he sort of is, as he's fuelling the original pirates need.
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You said well no, then posted the exact same thing i had said.
 
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Very clever way around the DRM, I'd be interested to see them try to sue you :)

Thing is, you'd be able to produce a receipt for the purchase dating back to before you downloaded it, so you'd at least have a case to argue.
 
Really it's just Publisher's punishing the consumer for buying the game in question and the pirate's getting a better deal. I dont download or buy any game's that contain any DRM because one is illegal and the other is fraud (to me anyway).

If i buy something, i want to full right to be able to play it whenever i want to without having any issues at all, since going through a DRM fiasco with my dad when he bought some music it put me off for life.

I just wish publisher's would take these "security" fixes off game's because in the end they're getting pirated anyway and it's ruining the game for most people.

I dont see any problem with what you're doing, but looking from a legal standpoint i would reckon if you uploaded the software when downloading it then they can probably punish you for it (for distribution). Unless that is you use other source's.

As if the PC market isn't as thriving as it once was, we're not lowering the sale's by putting this crap security feature on install's and game's themeselves.
 
As a side note, if you're using torrent to obtain your games by these 'other' means, in the eyes of the law you will still be prosecuted by good ol Davenport just the same as every other pirate is. People are being charged with distribution of copywrite content due to the fact that torrents seed to other users while you download. No one has ever been brought to court for having a pirated retail game in their possession as the amount someone could be charged for would be rather insignificant, whereas the sum that can potentially be won for damages caused by distribution (torrent use) is far larger (but exaggerated, however this is a completely different matter).
 
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Dark_Angel said:
Can. Worms. They are everywhere.

Some people swear tha second hand games are as good as piracy, others say it is fair, blah blah.
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Yeah I decided to do some googling about this as well.

Apparently, with Spore, EA reserves the right to play the game to first owners of the software only.

Whilst re-selling is not expressly made illegal by the EULA, they do say that they may not provide access to the game if you transfer your license.

Additionally, future versions of PlayStation consoles may tie your game to the first console you run it on. It was rumoured to happen with PS3, but didn't, but Sony have left the door open to do this in future.

Additionally, I lot of developer and publishers have expressed their desire to make 2nd-hand game illegal, since some of them view the 2nd hand market as legal piracy.

But it seems until this is challenged in court, right now no one knows where we stand. We don't know if EULAs prohibiting 2nd-hand sales can be enforced, and we don't know if 2nd-hand games can be made illegal.

Ugh. It's not even good enough to buy your games these days. You have to buy em and keep em to make everyone happy.
 
If games publishers stop the second-hand market then car manufacturers, mobile phone manufacturers, television manufacturers... well everyone tbh would be within their rights to do the same thing. There really is no difference that i can see.
 
That's sad...the game has been brought already...they have the money. So it should be up to the user if they want to pass it on to someone else.

It hasn't really affected sales in the past, so it shouldn't now.
 
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