Feral kids/adults vs human responsibilty

rz30

rz30

rz30

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This is a continuation of my last question but requires a seprate thread.

Feral kids/People

Rough definition: A human who has been pretty much starved of human contact, they have been fed and then pretty much left in solitude for years and years.


Educators have worked with these kids/adults(after they were found and released), psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, teachers, church ministers etc..

If you don't teach somebody to read or write before the age of about 12 then you never can apparently, it's impossible, this is proven fact from studying these kids, their brains just cannot associate with what their being taught to do.

There have been various cases of feral people with this reported, some of the feral (now adult) kids have no conception of guilt or wrong doing(or very little conception). Some of them have developed highly anti-sociable habits that i won't describe but they didn't see anything wrong with them. They had to be taught not to do these things, but still, after being starved of human teaching and affection for so long, being taught and corrected didn't seem to have much of an effect on them.

Point being that if a human being is the result of his/her influences/teachings up to the age of about 12 then how can they be wholey responsible for their actions after about 12... This isn't a philosophical question, rather a quesion based on fact regarding how your influences in your younger years shape your character ?
 
Not really sure what you're getting at more than common sense, really.

Children need an upbringing. They need to be taught right from wrong, and how human society works. If they're not taught properly then they adapt to instinctive survival mechanisms - the strong kill the weak. To them, since they haven't been taught "social" ability, anyone who acts within the confines of normal society are the "weak".

Hence we have packs of maladjusted youth stomping the heads of decent people on the streets. They don't fear legal repurcussions as they don't truly understand what it means - while for the rest of us it's a life-ruining situation to be in, as we act within the confines and expectations of a capitalist society.

Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil. If left to their own devices and not brought up properly (read : conditioned), they'll act to tear every fabric of society apart. It's only nature.
 
Pestilence said:
Not really sure what you're getting at more than common sense, really.

Children need an upbringing. They need to be taught right from wrong, and how human society works. If they're not taught properly then they adapt to instinctive survival mechanisms - the strong kill the weak. To them, since they haven't been taught "social" ability, anyone who acts within the confines of normal society are the "weak".

Hence we have packs of maladjusted youth stomping the heads of decent people on the streets. They don't fear legal repurcussions as they don't truly understand what it means - while for the rest of us it's a life-ruining situation to be in, as we act within the confines and expectations of a capitalist society.

Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil. If left to their own devices and not brought up properly (read : conditioned), they'll act to tear every fabric of society apart. It's only nature.
Click to expand...

I could not agree with your more... It's a rare person who speaks the truth that you do.
 
Pestilence said:
Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil.
Click to expand...

I don't believe this one bit. People aren't inherently bad; in fact, our lives are based around acts of kindness. Look into the eyes of a baby, which could not survive except for the kindness of others, and tell me that people are basically evil.

From a scientific point of view, some scientists have shown a genetic basis for altruism, where it is actually beneficial in evolutionary terms to selflessly help others. Look at the countless health benefits you get from having a wide group of friends, from the feelings of pleasure you get from helping others.

Check it out: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10750-why-altruism-paid-off-for-our-ancestors.html

The Seville Statement on Non-violence: http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3247&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

Don't give up hope in people.
 
I don't think people are naturally evil either.

So the feral kid poos in pubic, that doesn't make them bad, just not sociably acceptable. for example If you gave them a kitten would they try and eat it or stroke it. assuming they were not starving i think they would show it love.
 
starfighter said:
I don't think people are naturally evil either.

So the feral kid poos in pubic, that doesn't make them bad, just not sociably acceptable. for example If you gave them a kitten would they try and eat it or stroke it. assuming they were not starving i think they would show it love.
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I'm not using "evil" as a general term here. Evil itself is incredibly objective in nature. What I mean by "evil" is "completely against the rules" - ie. the opposite of what is expected in a given society.

That feral kid may well react initially with a sense of love or longing for said kitten - but as soon as a truly feral child (or any other animal, for that matter) gets annoyed with it, snap goes the neck. The child doesn't understand that you simply don't mistreat kittens in that way. It's never been taught any better, and as per nature once that other animal becomes a nuisance, it must be removed.

Strudey - many animals, even those in the wild, will automatically have an affection for the young even whether they be of an entirely different species. This appears to be an evolutionary thing and I won't disagree with you there at all. However, to use it as an example of people not being evil -- all I need to do is point you towards the recent case of "Baby P". Even in nature there are exceptions.

Again, different people have different views of what exactly "evil" is. I believe that it's a complete disregard for societal norms, the rule of law, and the value of others. In essence, to be "evil" is to exist and act outside of conventional society and decency. People will inherently do this until they are conditioned otherwise.
 
I also don't agree with the "people are inherently evil" statement.

People are inherently good, but with a predisposition to revert back to evil behaviour if they feel like it. In the case of the feral kids, the reason they live their entire lives in such a selfish way is down to lack of contact with society. Without them being able to see the consequences of their actions from an early age, they've become accustomed to simply ignoring any pangs of guilt they might feel. To them, it's quite acceptable to stand on someone else to get what they want. I still think that underneath, they have the makings of a human being, and no doubt have the potential to feel a similar level of empathy as a civilised human being.



strudey said:
I don't believe this one bit. People aren't inherently bad; in fact, our lives are based around acts of kindness. Look into the eyes of a baby, which could not survive except for the kindness of others, and tell me that people are basically evil.

From a scientific point of view, some scientists have shown a genetic basis for altruism, where it is actually beneficial in evolutionary terms to selflessly help others. Look at the countless health benefits you get from having a wide group of friends, from the feelings of pleasure you get from helping others.

Check it out: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10750-why-altruism-paid-off-for-our-ancestors.html

The Seville Statement on Non-violence: http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3247&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

Don't give up hope in people.
Click to expand...

That New Scientist link is pretty interesting actually. The gist seems to be that hunter gather groups 150,000 - 12,000 years ago were more inter-related than previously thought. If this was the case, then altruistic behaviour like dying for the group would potentially ensure that your genes survived (with the rest of your family). There was also sufficient difference in genetic makeup between discrete groups of people to favour altruistic behaviour towards your own group.

This is pretty interesting, but as the researcher admits:
Bowles admits that he has found no evidence for any gene for human altruism, he says that if such a genetic disposition were to exist, group conflict would have played an important role in its development.
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For me, the research doesn't go far enough. I'd still struggle to explain why people not only feel the need to help out their own family group, but often complete strangers, or even enemies. It does happen, and unless the altruistic gene is also responsible for these actions of sympathy (which would surely be unfavourable) then it doesn't necessarily exist.
 
Pestilence said:
Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil. If left to their own devices and not brought up properly (read : conditioned), they'll act to tear every fabric of society apart. It's only nature.
Click to expand...


That's not strictly true, they will not act to tear down society because that would imply that it was planned, which would need some kind of comprehension as to how society works.

As you say, it's only nature, is a Shark that attacks a cute baby seal evil? Of course not.
 
Pestilence said:
Not really sure what you're getting at more than common sense, really.

Children need an upbringing. They need to be taught right from wrong, and how human society works. If they're not taught properly then they adapt to instinctive survival mechanisms - the strong kill the weak. To them, since they haven't been taught "social" ability, anyone who acts within the confines of normal society are the "weak".

Hence we have packs of maladjusted youth stomping the heads of decent people on the streets. They don't fear legal repurcussions as they don't truly understand what it means - while for the rest of us it's a life-ruining situation to be in, as we act within the confines and expectations of a capitalist society.

Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil. If left to their own devices and not brought up properly (read : conditioned), they'll act to tear every fabric of society apart. It's only nature.
Click to expand...

Perfectly written. Shame politicians dont come on here and have a good read.
They dont help by treating these youths to free mp3 players and holidays abroad, surely that reinforces that doing bad does have rewards. What next? Free laptop for good behaviour?
 
p4radox said:
For me, the research doesn't go far enough. I'd still struggle to explain why people not only feel the need to help out their own family group, but often complete strangers, or even enemies. It does happen, and unless the altruistic gene is also responsible for these actions of sympathy (which would surely be unfavourable) then it doesn't necessarily exist.
Click to expand...

Fair point. I'm mainly going from my own life experiences here, which may not give the best view. But I've never met anyone who didn't care about something apart from themselves, at least on some level.

Reminds me of that Jack Handey quote: 'What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know.'
 
Pestilence said:
Not really sure what you're getting at more than common sense, really.

Children need an upbringing. They need to be taught right from wrong, and how human society works. If they're not taught properly then they adapt to instinctive survival mechanisms - the strong kill the weak. To them, since they haven't been taught "social" ability, anyone who acts within the confines of normal society are the "weak".

Hence we have packs of maladjusted youth stomping the heads of decent people on the streets. They don't fear legal repurcussions as they don't truly understand what it means - while for the rest of us it's a life-ruining situation to be in, as we act within the confines and expectations of a capitalist society.

Whatever anyone chooses to spout, people are inherently evil. If left to their own devices and not brought up properly (read : conditioned), they'll act to tear every fabric of society apart. It's only nature.
Click to expand...

Maladjusted youth stomping are not feral kids, if anything its more a case of pier comformity. Its where the saying "One bad apple rots the barrel" comes from.
 
Fair play :D

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."

I think he just ended this thread :D
 
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