annoying road users who pay no attention to pedestrians

[Dano]

Another victim of government propaganda, what a shame.

Most research out there shows that it's the conversation, not the act of holding the phone that creates the risk because a phone conversation is more taxing on the brain than a conversation with someone sat next to you, and because the caller doesn't know what's going on around the car and thus doesn't know to shut the hell up if anything more complicated than just straight line cruising should happen.

It's frustrating to see a worthless ban that wont solve anything when the actual solution is just to ask the caller to hang on a sec if you need to actually do anything. Plus if you are planning ahead far enough you can explain why they should hang on before starting your manoeuvre. "Hang on a sec while I overtake this lorry" .... "ok sorry about that, where were we?" it's really not that hard.

Of course I can guarantee that the worst offenders of mobile phone driving stupidity (white van men and school run mums) do not do anything of the sort. At least when they were allowed to hold the phone in their hand you could see them coming and prepare your contingency plan.

What a load of crap, if you're using a mobile your attention is not on the road as it should be and as such you can easily miss things you'd otherwise have seen, 'hang on while I finish driving over this cyclist because I failed to see him as I was too busy talking to you'.

They're dangerous as many studies have confirmed time and time again, and talking about it being the conversation that causing the issue is merely being pedantic for the sake of it.

 

[Lum]

So presumably you never talk to your passenger, or listen to the radio then?

And no my point about it being the conversation is entirely valid because the hand held phone makes virtually zero difference to your driving standard. There are basically two situations you can be in, either...

1) You are capable of having a mobile phone conversation while driving, in which case it makes no difference whether that's hand held, bluetooth earpiece or full car kit, or

2) You are not capable of having a mobile phone conversation while driving, in which case you are going to end up injuring or killing someone regardless of whether you use hand held, bluetooth or a car kit.

Now if the government were to turn around and say something like "Our research shows that 90% of drivers fall into category 2 and thus we're banning mobile phone use by any one in charge of a vehicle" then I could support that. The problem is actually enforcing that ban is hard and they don't like implementing difficult things.

So, in an attempt to be seen to do something they declare that hand held is bad, handsfree is good and enforce the easy to see hand held phones while ignoring the problem. This is bad because people who previously only rarely used a phone while driving, eg. in emergencies or to call when near stationary on the M6 to inform family not to put the oven on just yet are likely to buy hands free kits and having spent that money they're going to bloody well use them since we're all told it's safe. Likewise companies that install hands free kits into company vehicles now tend to require that drivers answer their phones.

And if you don't believe that some drivers are capable of holding the conversation safely then presumably you'll be calling for a ban on CB radios in trucks, and for the police Tetra communication system to be removed from police cars and be replaced with a little buzzer on the dash that tells them to pull over at the next services and phone the control room to find out where the armed robbery is.

 

[Dano]

So presumably you never talk to your passenger, or listen to the radio then?

In a car the passenger can see what's happening and can understand that the driver is concentrating, it is vastly different to using a mobile to have a conversation.

And no my point about it being the conversation is entirely valid because the hand held phone makes virtually zero difference to your driving standard. There are basically two situations you can be in, either...

1) You are capable of having a mobile phone conversation while driving, in which case it makes no difference whether that's hand held, bluetooth earpiece or full car kit, or

Wrong, if you are using a hand held phone you not only have a lack of concentration on the road you have a lack of control by being one handed on the wheel too.

2) You are not capable of having a mobile phone conversation while driving, in which case you are going to end up injuring or killing someone regardless of whether you use hand held, bluetooth or a car kit.

Which is why mobile use should be banned period.

Now if the government were to turn around and say something like "Our research shows that 90% of drivers fall into category 2 and thus we're banning mobile phone use by any one in charge of a vehicle" then I could support that. The problem is actually enforcing that ban is hard and they don't like implementing difficult things.

So, in an attempt to be seen to do something they declare that hand held is bad, handsfree is good and enforce the easy to see hand held phones while ignoring the problem. This is bad because people who previously only rarely used a phone while driving, eg. in emergencies or to call when near stationary on the M6 to inform family not to put the oven on just yet are likely to buy hands free kits and having spent that money they're going to bloody well use them since we're all told it's safe. Likewise companies that install hands free kits into company vehicles now tend to require that drivers answer their phones.

So, you'd rather that they made no effort to remove this danger from our roads instead of taking a first step even if it is not adequate.

And if you don't believe that some drivers are capable of holding the conversation safely then presumably you'll be calling for a ban on CB radios in trucks, and for the police Tetra communication system to be removed from police cars and be replaced with a little buzzer on the dash that tells them to pull over at the next services and phone the control room to find out where the armed robbery is.

I'm all for CB radio to be banned the same as mobile phone use.

As for your police comment, it's called training.

Using a mobile while driving is bad and no, the government has not gone far enough in legislation against them, that's all there is to it and anybody who uses one while driving deserves to be banned in my opinion.

 

[Lum]

Wrong, if you are using a hand held phone you not only have a lack of concentration on the road you have a lack of control by being one handed on the wheel too.

But that is so minor compared to the conversation it's not really worth bothering about, otherwise we'd be making automatic gearboxes mandatory, dont forget that there's plenty of drivers out there who drive one handed for a variety of other reasons anyway, this can be anything from being an amputee to being a lazy sod who leaves their last hand on the gearstick. My dad actually passed his driving test despite leaving his hand on the stick for pretty much the entirety of the test. The examiner told him it was a bad habbit but passed him anyway. Wouldn't happen nowadays but he still does it and has never had an accident as a result of it. He's far from alone on this one.

So, you'd rather that they made no effort to remove this danger from our roads instead of taking a first step even if it is not adequate.

It's not just a case of "not adequate" it is actually making the situation worse than if they had just left it as it was for the reasons I explained above. There is a very simple rule for this sort of thing "measure what is important, do not make important what you can measure". The current legislation fails at this (hands free use can be measured, but the conversation is what is important). Funnily enough, it's just like the plague of speed cameras (4% of accidents are down to excessive speed over the speed limit, poor observation is the cause of most of them) it's all about being seen to be doing something while not putting any real effort in, such as more bloody police on the road.

As for your police comment, it's called training.

So you would agree that if a driver has sufficient skill (in this case provided by police driver training) then they can do it safely? Surely it's not impossible for a normal driver to achieve a similar level of skill too. It's really not that hard for a civilian to reach police driving standards (especially these days, said standards are not what they used to be) it just takes time, dedication and practice that most people can't be bothered to put in. A good start would be to obtain a copy of Roadcraft and study it, or join your local IAM group. Not that the IAM are going to teach you how to use a phone, of course.

Using a mobile while driving is bad and no, the government has not gone far enough in legislation against them, that's all there is to it and anybody who uses one while driving deserves to be banned in my opinion.

Which contradicts your comment above about how the police can do it fine (FYI: that Tetra system meets the legal definition of a mobile phone, and can be used as a normal mobile phone on the GSM network)

 

[Dano]

But that is so minor compared to the conversation it's not really worth bothering about, otherwise we'd be making automatic gearboxes mandatory, dont forget that there's plenty of drivers out there who drive one handed for a variety of other reasons anyway, this can be anything from being an amputee to being a lazy sod who leaves their last hand on the gearstick. My dad actually passed his driving test despite leaving his hand on the stick for pretty much the entirety of the test. The examiner told him it was a bad habbit but passed him anyway. Wouldn't happen nowadays but he still does it and has never had an accident as a result of it. He's far from alone on this one.

It's not minor when taken in combination with the conversation, as for your dad, he would not pass like that in this day and age.

It's not just a case of "not adequate" it is actually making the situation worse than if they had just left it as it was for the reasons I explained above.

I disagree, but we've already covered that.

So you would agree that if a driver has sufficient skill (in this case provided by police driver training) then they can do it safely?

No, and I didn't actually say they could do it safely either but allowances have to be made so that they can do their job, just like they are able to break speed limits.

Surely it's not impossible for a normal driver to achieve a similar level of skill too. It's really not that hard for a civilian to reach police driving standards (especially these days, said standards are not what they used to be) it just takes time, dedication and practice that most people can't be bothered to put in. A good start would be to obtain a copy of Roadcraft and study it, or join your local IAM group. Not that the IAM are going to teach you how to use a phone, of course.

No, it's not impossible, maybe we should start letting people who have that skill do 100mph on the motorways too?

Which contradicts your comment above about how the police can do it fine (FYI: that Tetra system meets the legal definition of a mobile phone, and can be used as a normal mobile phone on the GSM network)

It would only contradict a comment if I'd actually made said comment.

 

[Lum]

It's not minor when taken in combination with the conversation, as for your dad, he would not pass like that in this day and age.

I know he wouldn't and even said as much. And sorry but it is still minor. I agree that the conversation will likely reduce attention but in the situation where the driver does notice that something has happened that requires both hands on the wheel it's easy enough to just drop the phone and grab the wheel. Being mid-gearchange (hand is further away, may actually need the car in gear) or drinking a cup of coffee are far worse than holding a phone. It's still the failure in observation that results from the conversation that is going to cause the failure to prevent or avoid an accident.

No, it's not impossible, maybe we should start letting people who have that skill do 100mph on the motorways too?

That would be nice. I'd like to see the IAM (or RoSPA) test get legal recognition and people who pass it gain the right to an increased national speed limit. It might encourage people to actually go on the courses and improve their driving standard.

Edit: Here is how I would go about legislating for the mobile phone issue.

1) More unmarked patrols, with video cameras to collect evidence, don't have them spending all their time pulling people for doing 75mph but have them actually recording people who are weaving all over the place and not paying attention.

2) Every driver who is issued with a company phone and expected to answer it while driving to attend a training course on how to use it safely whilst in charge of a vehicle, course will include amongst other things when not to answer it at all and when to end the conversation prematurely.

3) A mobile phone conversation, where it can be proven that one was taking place, hands free or hand held, is now an aggravating factor in any of the offences relating to poor observation, that is anything from "due care and attention" all the way up to "causing death by dangerous driving"

3a) Where said offences carry jail time then the mobile phone use can add additional time proportional to the original sentence (ie the message is, if you hit someone because you were gabbing on the phone we're not going to go easy on you)

3b) Where said offences do not carry jail time and nobody was KSI'd if the court decides that the primary cause of the offence was because you were using the phone, some or all of the offence can be waived in exchange for taking the course described in 2) at your own expense, similar to the current Speed Awareness scheme (the message here being one of education, training and trying to improve driving standards, rather than just punishment)


The sticking point, of course, is 1) this government is not very good at spending money, unless it's pouring it into badly run banks or badly run IT projects.

 

[Dano]

I know he wouldn't and even said as much. And sorry but it is still minor. I agree that the conversation will likely reduce attention but in the situation where the driver does notice that something has happened that requires both hands on the wheel it's easy enough to just drop the phone and grab the wheel. Being mid-gearchange (hand is further away, may actually need the car in gear) or drinking a cup of coffee are far worse than holding a phone. It's still the failure in observation that results from the conversation that is going to cause the failure to prevent or avoid an accident.

Yes, and in the time it takes you to drop the phone and grab the wheel crucial time has been lost on top of slowed reactions from being distracted, it is not minor but we'll have to agree to differ. Drinking coffee is as bad I agree, both come under the heading of driving without due care and attention, as for changing gear that is part and parcel of vehicle control and is part of the training all drivers are supposed to do, unless they opt for taking their test in an automatic of course.

 

[Lum]

We are talking about a fraction of a second here, in the vast majority of accidents, if the situation has got so bad that that fraction of a second makes a difference then you have already failed to exercise proper observation and planning. Sure that fraction of a second might get you off the hook sometimes but I'd much rather see people who were observing properly in the first place rather than being distracted by a phone conversation because they don't know how to do it properly.

This is why I object so badly to the law, by telling people that the conversation is safe a lot more people will be getting into these sorts of situations in the first place and only some of them will get out of it due to the above mentioned fraction of a second time gained by the handsfree kit.

 

[Dano]

No, dropping the phone may only take a fraction of a second but the decision to actually do so will take longer, in fact I'd put money on most people not dropping it at all and trying to hold onto it and the wheel at the same time.

As I have already stated, the legislation regarding mobile useage does not go far enough but it is better than it not being there at all, you disagree and that is fine.

 

[Onslaught]

The first thing my driving instructor told me then we began the actual lesson was to NEVER assume when it comes to other people on the roads.

This is something I have recently learnt, I have had to start commuting via dual carriageway and motorways through rush hour traffic and find the experiance fraught with carelessness and selfishness of other road users - There are a lot of van drivers and large 4x4 drivers that I have found whom fail to appreciate your required safety gap or proximity when they flash the indicator once and pull out in front - With more cars on the roads now it seems to get worse.

Although I appreciate the differences between road type, if someone can't see a car with its lights on in daylight, it makes it tough for a padestrian at any time.

I hope you feel bettwe G-MAN2004.

 

[Lum]

No, dropping the phone may only take a fraction of a second but the decision to actually do so will take longer,

Which is because of the conversation, not because of holding the phone

in fact I'd put money on most people not dropping it at all and trying to hold onto it and the wheel at the same time.

This is a good point, though one that could be solved by education, or by not getting into the situation in the first place.

As I have already stated, the legislation regarding mobile useage does not go far enough but it is better than it not being there at all, you disagree and that is fine.

Yeah, I guess we're at an impasse since I believe the current legislation is actually worse than not being there at all and neither of us are going to change our minds.

One point that does need bringing up though is the massive difference the style of conversation can make. Before this law came in I used to use the phone fairly often while driving to or between jobs. I would never initiate a call whilst moving above 10 or so mph and I think banning that (hands free or otherwise might be a good idea) but the typical conversation would go like this.

Hello Lum speaking
Oh hi, I'm getting this error in <app> what do I do?
Oh that's easy, just delete this file and try again if that doesn't work, call me back
ok thanks.

2 minutes later, it rings again

Hello Lum speaking
It's still not working, now it's doing this.
Ok, that's going to need a bit more work, can you just hold the line a moment while I find somewhere to pull over
Sure...

Then I stop somewhere safe and do some in depth troubleshooting.

The first part of the call I can do in my sleep, trust me on this I work from home so I know all about answering tech support queries while still asleep, if it's getting to a point where I actually need to think about it, it gets put on hold until I can stop driving.

Compare that to the school run mum who spends the entire 20 minute drive gabbing to someone (who is probably only a few cars behind in the queue) about last nights X-Factor or whatever the hell it is middle aged mums like to gab about these days.

It's all about managing distraction, in an ideal world everyone would pay 100% attention to the road, in reality this is almost never possible as you may have kids in the car, an unstable load, an overheating engine, a passenger who wont shut up or be unsure of the current route. I've yet to encounter a driving course that actually teaches you how to manage this sort of thing well and minimise the risks. It's a sorely neglected skill, incredibly useful, which a lot of people never learn.

(As an aside, once my customers realised I had a handsfree kit, many of them would get funny with me for asking them to wait until I could stop since they'd swallowed the government message that a handsfree kit is safe. Some of them even went as far as complaining to my boss about being asked to wait a couple of minutes because their call was so urgent omg! Joe Bloggs can't log in unless he moves to the PC on the next desk. Fortunately I had an understanding boss who was quite happy for me to do this, other engineers who fell under a different section and different boss would get a bollocking for it because the company had spent so much on handsfrees.)

 

[Dano]

Which is because of the conversation, not because of holding the phone

Which still doesn't negate my point that it is not a minor issue.

This is a good point, though one that could be solved by education, or by not getting into the situation in the first place.

No it wont because you'll always have some idiot who thinks the rules dont apply to them.

Yeah, I guess we're at an impasse since I believe the current legislation is actually worse than not being there at all and neither of us are going to change our minds.

Agreed.

One point that does need bringing up though is the massive difference the style of conversation can make.

Agreed, maybe you should have remembered that earlier when you made your comment about banning the police radio.

Before this law came in I used to use the phone fairly often while driving to or between jobs. I would never initiate a call whilst moving above 10 or so mph and I think banning that (hands free or otherwise might be a good idea) but the typical conversation would go like this.

Hello Lum speaking
Oh hi, I'm getting this error in <app> what do I do?
Oh that's easy, just delete this file and try again if that doesn't work, call me back
ok thanks.

2 minutes later, it rings again

Hello Lum speaking
It's still not working, now it's doing this.
Ok, that's going to need a bit more work, can you just hold the line a moment while I find somewhere to pull over
Sure...

Then I stop somewhere safe and do some in depth troubleshooting.

The first part of the call I can do in my sleep, trust me on this I work from home so I know all about answering tech support queries while still asleep, if it's getting to a point where I actually need to think about it, it gets put on hold until I can stop driving.

Compare that to the school run mum who spends the entire 20 minute drive gabbing to someone (who is probably only a few cars behind in the queue) about last nights X-Factor or whatever the hell it is middle aged mums like to gab about these days.

It's all about managing distraction, in an ideal world everyone would pay 100% attention to the road, in reality this is almost never possible as you may have kids in the car, an unstable load, an overheating engine, a passenger who wont shut up or be unsure of the current route. I've yet to encounter a driving course that actually teaches you how to manage this sort of thing well and minimise the risks. It's a sorely neglected skill, incredibly useful, which a lot of people never learn.

(As an aside, once my customers realised I had a handsfree kit, many of them would get funny with me for asking them to wait until I could stop since they'd swallowed the government message that a handsfree kit is safe. Some of them even went as far as complaining to my boss about being asked to wait a couple of minutes because their call was so urgent omg! Joe Bloggs can't log in unless he moves to the PC on the next desk. Fortunately I had an understanding boss who was quite happy for me to do this, other engineers who fell under a different section and different boss would get a bollocking for it because the company had spent so much on handsfrees.)

It's about minimising distraction, not managing. Why even have your mobile turned on while driving, all it becomes is another distraction.

 

[ChrisJSY]

The first thing my driving instructor told me then we began the actual lesson was to NEVER assume when it comes to other people on the roads.

10+ years of driving has made me realise that he was right to make it the first thing to learn.

If anything, assum the worst and you'll prevent things happening with forsight.

Mostly anyway, that's how I avoid things
I've avoided a lot of things by have the precognition to think "this could end up bad"...

 

[Lum]

No it wont because you'll always have some idiot who thinks the rules dont apply to them.

You will always get that, whether you operate under your prefered scheme or mine, there's not a lot that you can do about it except have a decent police presence about to catch them.

Agreed, maybe you should have remembered that earlier when you made your comment about banning the police radio.

Oh I had, believe me. I was kind of hoping you'd point that out in your reply.

It's about minimising distraction, not managing. Why even have your mobile turned on while driving, all it becomes is another distraction.

Part of managing distraction is of course to minimise it, and managing distraction is part of the overall process of managing risk.

As you might have gathered by now most of the calls I used to take were of the sort that could be gotten rid of within 30 seconds without any real effort going into them. If I don't get rid of these as they occur then they build up and I arrive at my actual customer for the day with 10 or so voicemails from customers about stupid issues, a similar number of voicemails from the helpdesk about the exact same issue and then one from the helpdesk manager having a bitch about me not answering the phone. When you call the user back they're usually at lunch or in a meeting and no-one else knows what you're talking about, it'll take a good couple of hours chasing to get all the calls closed.

In a typical job, that couple of hours pushes my leaving time back such that I'll be hitting Birmingham around about 5 o'clock on my way home and I'm sorry but there is a much greater risk involved in being sat in the Birmingham rush hour full of selfish impatient and angry drivers than there is in me answering the phone for 30 seconds a couple of times on the way up at 10am, not to mention the increased risk caused by fatigue that comes from driving home after a late finish.

 

[Dano]

Oh I had, believe me. I was kind of hoping you'd point that out in your reply.

In which case we're done here, if you already knew it then why even make an argument against it other than to troll. Go get your epeen elsewhere.

 

[Lum]

uhh, what?

I was just trying to work towards the point that it is possible to learn how to do it safely.