The future of fuel tax

I have in fact provided 2 sources.

You haven't provided any sources. You've named a website and the institute of fiscal studies as supporting your argument, despite the fact that the website makes no mention of it, and you've failed to reference which study you consider relevant from the institute. As such you haven't provided sources which can be easily checked.

But never mind. The only way it's not a cut is if the value of money is absolute and unchanging, which everyone knows it isn't. Like I say, it's just economics.

At what point did the government state that fuel tax would always rise in line with inflation? Without such a promise, not putting it up isn't a cut, it's just not putting it up. You can argue that the impact of the value is lessened because the relative cost has gone down compared to the average cost of goods (which is exactly what you are doing), but it's not a duty cut.

The easiest way to turn this around is, as I mentioned, to think of it in terms of a pay rise or savings account- if inflation is 3% and you get a 1% pay "rise", that's actually a cut. If inflation is 3% and you get 1% on your savings, you end the year with more money but you can buy less with it, so you are poorer. Wealth is not measured in pounds, it's measured in buying power.

I fully understand how it works, but it's still not a cut. Most people when they bring in the 'real term' value of anything only do it because their argument falls flat without it. In your case, you're trying to make Labour look better for not raising fuel duty as much as they might have, which is fine, but claiming it's a duty cut is a pretty blatant lie.

If I post up numbers I've done myself, the people who don't want to believe in the cuts just ignore them anyway, I've done it before. But here's the figures anyway. Between 2000 and 2007, tax rose from 58.6p per litre to 63.7p per litre. If it had stayed constant (ie, in line with inflation), it would have risen to 71p (obviously you can find variances in this amount by using different indices, but they will all give you an increase). So in fact, it was cut by 7.3p. These numbers direct from Petrolprices, which as you know was an anti-taxation platform so not open to accusations of misrepresentation I hope.

What inflation value are you using?

Also where is the promise that duty will keep pace with inflation? Without that you cannot say the value should have risen in the first place, and therefore there is no cut.
 
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You're just flapping around now. A rise less than inflation is a cut, a rise with inflation holds steady, a rise above inflation is an increase. Talking about absolutes in an inflationary economy is just meaningless, and this talk of government promises is just irrelevant nonsense. I love that you're actually prepared to say, essentially, "These real world figures are meaningless in the real world!" to try and make your argument though! Well done.

Petrol Prices provide the numbers which prove my case. From there it's just a case of doing some very simple maths yourself, if you think you can disprove my numbers. There are a lot of inflation indices you can use, but naturally I used RPI as it would be daft to use anything else. As I say though, you can use any index you want and you will find similiar results, the numbers will change but the results will still show these cuts. The IFS study is just a google away. I'm not going to waste time any more time with them though as they just prove my numbers, it won't do anything to change your position on whether or not it's actually a cut. I can't argue with a child who says the sky is green either.

You've succesfully ignored the comparison with a wage increase below inflation- if you ignore it one more time I think that'll make it obvious that you can't argue against it. So far, you've just argued around it, made strange comments about "promises" and called me a liar. Tackle the main issue. Or don't, again.
 
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You're just flapping around now. A rise less than inflation is a cut, a rise with inflation holds steady, a rise above inflation is an increase. Talking about absolutes in an inflationary economy is just meaningless, and this talk of government promises is just irrelevant nonsense. I love that you're actually prepared to say, essentially, "These real world figures are meaningless in the real world!" to try and make your argument though! Well done.

No, a rise is a rise, a cut is a cut, and keeping it the same is just that. You can say the relative value of the duty may change, but that is not a cut.

If Macdonalds don't raise their prices, have they cut it? No, they've simply kept it the same.

To say that Labour have cut fuel duty is a lie, plain and simple.

Petrol Prices provide the numbers, there are hundreds of inflation calculators you can use, but naturally I used RPI as it would be daft to use anything else. As I say though, you can use any index you want and you will find similiar results, the numbers will change but the results will still show these cuts. The IFS study is just a google away. I'm not going to waste time any more time on them though as they just prove my numbers, it won't do anything to change your position on whether or not it's actually a cut. I can't argue with a child who says the sky is green either.

Wow, argumentum ad hominem... What a great comeback.

The point remains, Labour have not cut fuel duty. They have raised it at a rate slightly less than the rate of inflation, this is not a cut, it's just a slower rise.

Labour have cut fuel duty once (in 2000), but only after they'd had it rising at 6% above inflation for three years...
 
The problem with Fuel Duty is that the people who set it don't live in the real world, they live in London where one can travel on Public Transport until 3am or later and there is a decent integrated transport system. If I leaved in Reading, I could be in the centre of London inside 45 mins door to door. My commute from Hartlepool to South Shields is the same distance and takes 2 hours and even then I can only set off at 5 past the hour. Oh, it costs me twice as much as driving does. Commuting in the North East makes you realise that you NEED a car. So, why am I punished for not having a choice?

I suppose you can say we could work nearer to home, but Middlesbrough takes me 1h20m (30 mins in the car) on the buses and costs twice as much as driving, Stockton-on-Tees takes an hour (rather than 20 mins), Durham takes 1h30 on the bus (20mins car). All are within 15 miles of my house, so why can't I afford to get public transport to any of these places?

The Gov don't give a crap about us up here, even though we keep them in power. I suspect the same is true in the South West, Scotland and Wales so duty will remain high and even increase. The motorist is an easy target - the government know this, the police know this and both use it as a way to raise easy cash, rather than make the difficult decisions and target the leeches in society, not those of us who actually pay our taxes and are generally law-abiding citizens. Welcome to New Labour :rolleyes:
 
Quite, to get public transport to work takes an hour to cover a 15 minute journey...

I have better things to do with my time than extend my working day by an hour and a half unnecesarily.
 
always a heartfelt topic when people start talking about fuel duty.what most people dont seem to comprehend is if they drop fuel duty by a certain amount they will put up taxes in some other way!the reason they have dropped vat is so they can up fuel duty to keep petrol the same price and then when they put vat back up they will still keep the same level of fuel tax and there is nothing we can do!if they lower fuel duty they will up another form of taxation like road tax or income tax.its a no win situation.
atm im just happy that im paying 92.9p per litre for fuel that was 126.9 less than a year ago so stop your whinging and enjoy the savings you are making and worry about things when they happen
 
Taxation of any sort is always a hot topic, because generally it's money taken under duress and wasted by the state. Unfortunately too many people like abdicating responsibility to the state so the rest of us have to suffer the consequences.
 
dont you think its worse for the millionairs?
they pay 40-45% tax on most of their earning yet take less from the state than someone on either benefits than low pay?a rich person will go private for health and dentistry and likely have a big house that he pays for rubbish collection from ect so what does he get from the government apart from use of roads?
tax is necessary unless you want to do everything yourself
 
dont you think its worse for the millionairs?
they pay 40-45% tax on most of their earning yet take less from the state than someone on either benefits than low pay?a rich person will go private for health and dentistry and likely have a big house that he pays for rubbish collection from ect so what does he get from the government apart from use of roads?
tax is necessary unless you want to do everything yourself

I pay 40% tax 4 out of 12 months and drive a BMW 7 series. I have a very large 3 semi in a nice estate with a full 24' long livingroom with separate dining and kitchen. We have 3 double bedrooms and the guy at over the road has recently spent £30k replacing his garage and going to 6 beds. We have an MX5 in our garage oh and I have BUPA as well.

I am far from rich yet I am in one of the worst positions you can be in now. I bought in 2006 because we needed to move whilst the neighbors at our flat had changed and weren't on ASBO's. We have no kids, 2 cars and work 15 & 30 miles from home. We are both have higher education behind us so I get battered for SL contribution (wife is a specialist nurse so gets away from that at least...). I get no tax credits, a rubbish tax code because I get BUPA and pay a fortune in tax.

The Government knows I'm an easy target as no one campaigns for us as a white, working couple of 25/28 with no kids who are buying their own home. We pay for the scum of the earth to have drug rehab, we pay for other people's kids, we pay for services to the elderly and disabled (and I don't mind this part), we take pressure out of the NHS by going private, we pay for those on the dole who don't want to work, we pay to keep criminals locked up in facilities that have been rated up there with 3* hotels and pay their compensation for drug withdrawal issues. We pay for the gold-plated public sector pensions on defined benefit whilst having to contribute to our own Defined Contribution Schemes.

We are punished at every turn now - I have to travel to work due to the nature of my job, so does my wife as Labour closed our children's ward. It's a disgrace but those of us in this position don't shout loud enough because we're too busy bloody working - we don't have all day to campaign and lobby for change, we're too busy paying for everyone else to do it!!!

/rant
 
Of course they will, it all comes down to balancing those books. Until you get a government which realises more things should be local control and that they don't need to controlled ever aspect of our life and need 10 managers for every 1 employee. Then public spending is only going to increase. Which means so will tax.




A person in power who wants to give that power away? I wish you luck with that search as well...


M
 
Wow, argumentum ad hominem... What a great comeback.

This is really quite comic, considering you've twice called me a liar :rolleyes: Yet

But since you've now ignored the comparison with pay rises 3 times, I'm going to assume you have no comeback. If you can't counter that, then your own argument collapses. For whatever reason you're choosing to argue that the real world effect is irrelevant. For everyone who lives there, it's the only effect that matters.
 
There are many schools of thought that think now is the time to raise fuel duty, I'd have to say they have a more than convincing argument.

Exactly, now is the time to increase duty. We already got an increase with the VAT cut. I'd expect (and approve of) at least a couple of pence increase during 2009.
 
You're just flapping around now. A rise less than inflation is a cut, a rise with inflation holds steady, a rise above inflation is an increase.
Indeed. This is an issue Dolph has (and it seems continues to) struggled with for several years. Of course duty has been cut in real terms, Dolph's implication that a penny in 2000 is the same as a penny in 2008 is of course daft.
 
This is really quite comic, considering you've twice called me a liar :rolleyes: Yet

Actually, I've stated the statement 'Labour have cut fuel duty' is a lie, or at best a dishonest misrepresentation based on manipulation. If you insist on carrying on with perpetuating it, that's not my problem.

[But since you've now ignored the comparison with pay rises 3 times, I'm going to assume you have no comeback. If you can't counter that, then your own argument collapses. For whatever reason you're choosing to argue that the real world effect is irrelevant. For everyone who lives there, it's the only effect that matters.

I didn't ignore it, but it seems we quibble over terms. If I get a 2% pay rise, and inflation is 3%, I've not had a pay cut, no matter how many times you claim otherwise. My pay hasn't risen as fast as inflation, but that's not the same as a cut. You could argue that my relative earnings have changed, or that my buying power has been reduced, but that's not a pay cut, just as duty not rising is not a duty cut.

As fuel duty is a nominal value with no stated guaranteed increase or equivilence, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest changes have to keep pace with inflation.

As such, not raising duty is not the same thing as a cut.
 
Rofl how can you consider it a cut, it hasn't been cut and they have been making more and more revenue from it as the price has risen. There is no way you could consider it a cut.
 
Indeed. This is an issue Dolph has (and it seems continues to) struggled with for several years. Of course duty has been cut in real terms, Dolph's implication that a penny in 2000 is the same as a penny in 2008 is of course daft.

How's your oil price prediction going? After all, when it was $140 a barrel, it was nothing to do with speculation and everything to do with peak oil ;)

I don't struggle with it at all, it's just misrepresentation to claim that fuel duty has been cut when it hasn't. Something that cost £100 in 1995 and £100 now hasn't had a price cut, it's just not had a price rise, the desire to treat duty differently is based on politics, not consistancy, to try and claim that despite having some of the most expensive petrol in europe, we're somehow better off...
 
Rofl how can you consider it a cut, it hasn't been cut and they have been making more and more revenue from it as the price has risen. There is no way you could consider it a cut.

because they are trying to claim that Labour have done us a favour... And will happily spin just like labour to do it.
 
because they are trying to claim that Labour have done us a favour... And will happily spin just like labour to do it.
Urm - I've never voted Labour and wouldn't want to encourage anyone to. I'm not out claim they've done us a favour - in fact the opposite! They've done us a disservice by reducing the value of duty. But the fact is that under Labour the cost of fuel decreased in real terms except for the dramatic spike this year.

And re the oil price - haven't you noticed the global economy has tanked? Global oil consumption is down around 5% from the summer, thats a HUGE fall. US alone is 10% down. The economic collapse has made peak oil an irrelevance for a while, we're relatively swimming in the stuff. However, the low price is depressing investment and it's now possible that we'll never get global production back up to where it was this summer.
 
Urm - I've never voted Labour and wouldn't want to encourage anyone to. I'm not out claim they've done us a favour - in fact the opposite! They've done us a disservice by reducing the value of duty. But the fact is that under Labour the cost of fuel decreased in real terms except for the dramatic spike this year.

Our ridiculous fuel tax has been crippling us for a long time, Labour haven't really helped, the only concessions the public have got have been the results of mass protests (in 2000) or the threat of mass protest (2005 and 2008). If Labour really wanted to help the country, they'd have been reducing duty in the short term until they'd got viable transport alternatives in place, not just increasing the tax while doing nothing else.

And re the oil price - haven't you noticed the global economy has tanked? Global oil consumption is down around 5% from the summer, thats a HUGE fall. US alone is 10% down. The economic collapse has made peak oil an irrelevance for a while, we're relatively swimming in the stuff. However, the low price is depressing investment and it's now possible that we'll never get global production back up to where it was this summer.

Still denying that all those people buying oil and selling it without ever taking delivery were speculating then? The global economy collapse has certainly had a part to play, but it would never have reached the levels it did without the effect of speculators, as several of us tried to tell you at the time.
 
Rofl how can you consider it a cut, it hasn't been cut and they have been making more and more revenue from it as the price has risen. There is no way you could consider it a cut.

The magic words are "The real world". OK, break it down, this might sound patronising so apologies if it does, I'm trying to pitch it for all readers and to keep the maths nice and easy to work with, and obviously simplifying real-world economics to simple numbers. I lose track of what will make sense to people who don't do this stuff all the time, so, this probably won't be pitched quite right- but bear with me.

You have £100 in your pocket. The rate of inflation is 5%. Today, your £100 has exactly £100's buying power. But if you leave it in your pocket for a year, that 5% inflation impacts the price of items. If you go to the shops with your £100, things that cost £100 last year now cost £105, and you can't afford them- you have the same amount of money but it buys less.

If, on the other hand, you put your money in the bank at 5% interest, then take it out in a year, you now have £105, but you're not actually any richer, because the rate of inflation exactly matches the increase in money- buying power remains the same. The total amount of money is actually pretty meaningless, because the value of money changes.

(this is a sore point for me- I used to work for a bank where we had several "savings" accounts with 50% below inflation interest rates, so people putting money in there were literally losing money year on year. Yet they were always convinced that they were carefully saving and that they got an extra 2p to the £1 every year. Their £1.02 next year was just worth less than their £1 today)

So, anyway, take this basic fact of inflationary economics (probably the most fundamental fact of all modern economics) and apply it to tax. In the case of fuel tax, they get more revenue but the buying power of that revenue is not the same.

£100 in 1998, say, now equates to £135.42, according to the RPI ( a very effective inflation gauge). So tax (or savings, or income) have to increase by exactly 35.42% over that timescale in order to keep the real world value the same. I'm going to stick with this example as it's a nice easy timescale to work with

What Dolph is choosing to argue, for whatever reason, is that this doesn't actually matter. He states that if the government increase tax by less than this, it's still a tax increase. And in a sense, that's right, because the percentages do go up- but the real world impact doesn't reflect that, and to be blunt everything apart from the real world impact is completely meaningless.

The impact on your wallet is actually less, you are left literally richer, you can buy more stuff. The government gets more money in simple terms, but because of inflation in the mean time the amount of money they get is actually worth less, so they are left literally poorer.

The only way that this isn't a decrease, is if you ignore all of this completely, which you just can't do when dealing with a real-world economy. Real economics actually deals with the real world impact instead of just percentages on a screen, which is what Dolph's done here, using gross numbers to spin a totally false picture. An increase in tax, or earnings, or savings which exactly matches inflation is a 0% net change.

If you want to break it down even further, it's like walking against a treadmill. Inflation is the speed of the treadmill. If you don't walk at that pace, you fall behind. These tax "increases" are walking slower than the treadmill, and falling behind.

He's also wrongly assumed that I'm in favour of lower fuel tax, and that I vote labour, but that's by the by ;) If you're going to counter a policy, though, you have to know the facts. The anti road tax movement's argument is perfectly sound but they're arguing it with terrible maths, it's populist and simple but it's fairly meaningless. If you want to change anything, you need to know where you stand now. But a lot of people would sooner cling to the wrong numbers, which are simpler to make their case with.

<an edit for that last point>

I actually have no idea what the exact taxation position is now when you compare the first day of Blair's regime with today. At the peak of the price rises, overall corrected tax inc VAT was certainly higher than it was on day one. Not drastically higher, but still higher. It came down largely to the early years when Brown carried on the Tory fuel tax escalator, and actually increased it for a while. This was really frustrating, because people were making good arguments in favour of fuel tax cuts based on wrong numbers, which they could have still made with good numbers- instead of saying "This government constantly increases fuel tax", which was wrong, they simply had to say "Since this government came into power fuel tax has increased", which was completely true and makes the same argument.

I've not checked the numbers since the peak prices, so I'm not sure what's happened there. It'd be interesting to know what the changes in VAT and duty have now done- the rates are up IIRC but the values might be down, if the price drop is high enough. It might be that the total-term tax situation is still up, as it was at the peak, but it might be a little down now.

Brilliantly, the 2000 fuel protests which everyone was so pleased about actually came AFTER the abandonment of the fuel tax escalator, and the start of the downward trend of taxation- they were protesting against the most positive motorist's budget for nearly a decade. This is what I mean about bad maths. Now, if you ask a typical driver he'll tell you it actually led to a cut, because that's what people remember. Well done protestors! But if you ask a government official, they'll tell you what actually happened, and can point to the exact dates of changes, and if you've just based a campaign or petition or argument on a false assumption, he'll then ignore you. Your actual argument re impact on retail prices from hauliers, impact on remote communities, etc etc might be completely valid, but it's just as important that you make your case.

See also:

the only concessions the public have got have been the results of mass protests (in 2000)

Cause comes BEFORE effect.



<edit over>
 
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