EU says Microsoft violated law with IE on Windows

Most people buy pre-made computers from people like HP and Dell. It would thus then be up to HP and Dell to decide what browser they installed - they could even put it as an option when speccing the PC just like you can with how much RAM is installed. Alternatively Dell, HP etc could have software that runs when your computer first runs giving you the option of the top browsers to install (IE, FF, Opera, Safari).

Wouldn't happen. People who buy PCs from PC World, Dell and the likes have no idea what an OS is let alone a browser asking them to install a browser doesn't help them in the slightest. Where does it stop ask them to install a Media Player, what about a new Wordpad? And then you have the problem if there was a bug in one of the alternative browsers what happens then? You realise Microsoft will be blamed even though the browser wasn't written by them.
 
As you all probably know, I am not the greatest Windows and Microsoft fan but the EU are a bunch of morons on this issue (on all issues if you ask me). I see nothing wrong with bundling a web browser with an operating system.
 
They have a low market share because frankly, their browser is awful (in my experience).

Edit: BBC Article

Bewildering comment to be honest - it's easier to use than FireFox, more secure and faster than anything else.

/end fanboy rant

I agree, they are talking carp though. MS have been through this about 5 times already.
 
Wouldn't happen. People who buy PCs from PC World, Dell and the likes have no idea what an OS is let alone a browser asking them to install a browser doesn't help them in the slightest.

I said give them the choice. You're speccing your PC on the Dell site, you've picked the size of monitor, you've picked what version of Windows you want installed and then there's another box asking whether you want:
Microsoft Internet Explorer
Apple Safari
Mozilla Firefox
Opera

Everyone know who Micorosoft and Apple are. A lot of non-tech people now know what Firefox is even if they haven't used it. People would struggle knowing what Opera is. 50% may just pick Microsoft Internet Explorer because that's what they've always used - but the point is choice - choice is the cornerstone of a free market.
 
Don't apples os's come with some kind of browser as well?

Yep, Safari and it is exactly the same situation as Windows, it is the only browser included. Again, as with Windows, Mac users can install another browser of their choice if they want. The EU do seem to have it in for Microsoft.
 
It's very simple. By installing their program from the off people are far more likely to use their program than any other even if they know that others exist. Imagine if Opera was installed on every PC by default instead of IE - what do you think the usage graphs of each browser would then look like? IE has dominance because most people just turn on their computer and use it rather than fiddling around installing alternatives - especially within industry. Back in the Windows 95 days you couldn't even uninstall IE if you wanted to.

Yes I think most people understand that, but if you don't include a browser with the OS, how do you expect people to get online? I imagine if users discovered that their OS didn't come with an OS, they wouldn't be too happy, or even buy the OS again. Alternatively you could ship with it every browser under the sun, but in my experience there are only three browsers which are even worth using, FF3, IE, and Opera.

But why are Microsoft being hounded for this? Apple ships the Safari browser with their OS, why aren't they subject to the same treatment as Microsoft? is it because they have a lower market share so it isn't worth the hassle?


That's like saying 'the average person will be completely satisfied with a Ford Focus and thus we're going to allow Ford to automatically send you a Focus on your 17th birthday'. It is not about how satisfied a person might be or how good the product might be, it is about how it warps and negatively effects the market. Free market principles tell us that products should start on an equal footing (thus most of the point of the EEA). Any advantage that one product has that is not available to any other company's product should thus (and usually is) investigated to see if it is anti-competitive.

For more info see Articles 81 and 82

Yes, but people have the choice to find a better browser if they aren't satisfied. The argument being made to exclude the inclusion of IE with Windows could be applied to every other program/utility included with Windows, would you then force MS to strip everything away from it except for the Kernel and UI because it might be anti-competitive?

From what I have read, this investigation began because Opera filed a complaint, as they believed IE was stealing their share of the market.

Reg Article said:
The ruling came in a Statement of Objections from the Directorate General for Competition of the European Commission and was issued after browser specialist Opera filed a complaint with the Commission a year ago. Opera alleged Microsoft was continuing to abuse its dominant position by tying its browser to Windows and by not following web protocols.

If you look here, Firefox now has almost 45% of the browser market. As Windows makes up the bulk of systems out there, it shows that many of these people are capable of downloading a different browser because they aren't satisfied with IE. And oh look, Opera still has 2.4% despite the freedom of choice.
 
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Yep, Safari and it is exactly the same situation as Windows, it is the only browser included. Again, as with Windows, Mac users can install another browser of their choice if they want. The EU do seem to have it in for Microsoft.
The difference is that Microsoft is in a dominant position and thus can seriously warp the market whereas Apple is not and therefore cannot. That is the basis for the Commissions decision.
 
I said give them the choice. You're speccing your PC on the Dell site, you've picked the size of monitor, you've picked what version of Windows you want installed and then there's another box asking whether you want:
Microsoft Internet Explorer
Apple Safari
Mozilla Firefox
Opera

Everyone know who Micorosoft and Apple are. A lot of non-tech people now know what Firefox is even if they haven't used it. People would struggle knowing what Opera is. 50% may just pick Microsoft Internet Explorer because that's what they've always used - but the point is choice - choice is the cornerstone of a free market.

You've missed my point some people don't know what Firefox, Opera, etc is they don't even know what Internet Explorer is. I've taught people like this. They DO NOT give a friggin damn about other browsers. They want a PC to type a letter and check their email. And then you have the problem because IE is pretty much standard they go to their local College to learn computers and as it happens they learn to use IE, they get home and lo and behold they installed Firefox by mistake what they learned about IE is now useless. The people who want the choice all they do is download and install whatever browser they want which is how it should be.
 
So how will people "get a web browser" if indeed the operating system doesn't come with one in the first place?

95% of Firefox downloads occur through an IE browser. Fact.

So yeah... basically if Windows doesn't come with IE then the Internet will become harder to get access to. People will have to resort to buying magazines like PC Pro or hoping that their ISP sends them a CD with a selection of web browsers to install. In short - a pain in the buttock.
 
If you look here, Firefox now has almost 45% of the browser market. As Windows makes up the bulk of systems out there, it shows that many of these people are capable of downloading a different browser because they aren't satisfied with IE. And oh look, Opera still has 2.4% despite the freedom of choice.

Those statistics come from the W3C site - as in their own server logs. People going to the W3C site are going to be far more knowledgeable than normal users. The Firefox figures are thus far far skewed. Have a look at the usage statistics of sites that 'everyone' goes to and you'll see that IE has a market share closer to 75-80%.
 
You've missed my point some people don't know what Firefox, Opera, etc is they don't even know what Internet Explorer is. I've taught people like this. They DO NOT give a friggin damn about other browsers. They want a PC to type a letter and check their email. And then you have the problem because IE is pretty much standard they go to their local College to learn computers and as it happens they learn to use IE, they get home and lo and behold they installed Firefox by mistake what they learned about IE is now useless. The people who want the choice all they do is download and install whatever browser they want which is how it should be.
I know some people do not know what Firefox etc is - I even said that in the post you quoted. I also said most people know who/what Apple Safari is and that would be another choice to give users. Many users do not know what RAM is yet Dell etc give them a choice to upgrade their RAM when speccing their PC - why should browsers be different?
 
Those statistics come from the W3C site - as in their own server logs. People going to the W3C site are going to be far more knowledgeable than normal users. The Firefox figures are thus far far skewed. Have a look at the usage statistics of sites that 'everyone' goes to and you'll see that IE has a market share closer to 75-80%.

Aaah didn't notice that :)

Wiki has a good page on statistics, not the best source, but it'll do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

The graph has a reference to the source.
 
Netscape died when Microsoft made IE free. As a company whose only product was Navigator how could Netscape compete with that?

The problem it seems is people are looking at this issue in a present day context which of course can make this seem somewhat ludicrous. However for those of us who were active users of such browsers and watched all this unfold over a decade ago it was not so foolish, as with many such cases they run and run and one case leads to another (failure to comply) such that so much has changed in the interim that people find it difficult to understand what the fuss was about in the first place.
 
When does it stop?

Give a choice about what media player to install?
Give a choice about what email program to install?
Give a choice about what windows explorer program to install?
etc. etc.

All those come bundled with the OS, as does theming. What if I think ALL users should be able to use WindowBlinds by default? It's just not fair!
 
I know some people do not know what Firefox etc is - I even said that in the post you quoted. I also said most people know who/what Apple Safari is and that would be another choice to give users. Many users do not know what RAM is yet Dell etc give them a choice to upgrade their RAM when speccing their PC - why should browsers be different?

Because Joe Public haven't got a clue. Giving them more choice isn't helping them. Comparing RAM to a browser is just stupid. When they phone Dell for their first PC what do you think the guy on the other end is going to say. "Sir you now have a choice IE, Firefox, Safari, etc, etc." Joe bloggs is going to think WTF. The guy from Dell will just say install IE.

At the end of the day the EU have it in for Microsoft always have always will. I'm not a Microsoft fan boy I actually use Firefox myself but the EU are just being stupid. They are not helping end users in the slightest.
 
Netscape died when Microsoft made IE free. As a company whose only product was Navigator how could Netscape compete with that?

Or maybe it was netscape waiting three years after releasing netscape 4.0 to release the next major version?

What I don't understand is you seem to blame Microsoft but aim your argument of responsibility of installing browsers at OEM's.

You can't blame Microsoft for installing a "default" browser which at any point in the production of the PC or user life of the PC can be removed and replaced with another browser.
 
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