Non-Christians have no morals

krisboats · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:05

yantorsen said:
It's a good point, but I could equally argue that they don't hurt someone because there actually afraid of getting caught/punished for it. Which yes that is a form of rationalisation, albeit selfish.

Getting caught is a non issue, if someone really wants to they will do. Choosing not to purely out of a sense of empathy/fairness is not for personal reasons.

Take a serial killer for example, they've killed so many that another death wouldn't result in a significantly larger punishment and they've already committed enough murders to know how to get away with it or leave a massive trail for someone to follow. If they choose not to kill a baby because they feel its unfair to end its life at such an early stage that isn't for a feeling of self better'ness.

How about in films where someone refuses to produce the finishing blow in a sword/gun fight or whatever because the person is unarmed? Again, acting against personal beliefs out of a sense of reasoning.

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:10

krisboats said:
Getting caught is a non issue, if someone really wants to they will do. Choosing not to purely out of a sense of empathy/fairness is not for personal reasons.

It is an issue, of course getting caught is an issue, it's the main deterrent, the only people it doesn't effect are those who are irrational, or thinking irrationally in the heat of a moment. Choosing to do anything is for personal reasons, if you feel like you are abiding to what society thinks it correct or to some kind of moral code then it makes you feel better, and reduces anxiety.

krisboats said:
Take a serial killer for example, they've killed so many that another death wouldn't result in a significantly larger punishment and they've already committed enough murders to know how to get away with it or leave a massive trail for someone to follow. If they choose not to kill a baby because they feel its unfair to end its life at such an early stage that isn't for a feeling of self better'ness.

TBH this situation is entirely hypothetical and neither of us have any idea what would happen. Your right in saying about the punishment isn't going to be much worse though, that's why many murderers go on to re offend if they haven't been caught. The murderer probably doesn't murder the baby because he will think it'll make him seem "sick" to other people, more than the fact he's actually thought that it would be harsh, I doubt a mass murderer could be so rational.

Col_M · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:12

yantorsen said:
Yes I know what science is. What do you mean by "it's not the same for you"? You, as in a Christian.
I'm not sure what a book written 2000 years ago has to do with anything? What book are you talking about btw? As we're talking about morals and it's relation to Christianity I mean the bible, I just thought you'd read between the lines.
I'm just talking about basic behavioural psychology.
So was I

I never mentioned "my religion". You didn't need to, I already knew, you haven't kept it a secret on here

Anyway back to the hard wired morals. In Hauser's research the majority of subjects regardless of belief choose the same options in questions involving difficult moral choices. When asked to explain their choices the subject's haven't been able to explain why they made the moral choice they did. That has lead pshycologists with more experience and knowledge than me to believe that the desision making process is subconscious and hard wired into the primative parts of the brain that make basic primative decisions for us.
All very basically spelt out for other members of the forum who may not be familiar with his theory.
Who's studies and theories lead you to believe otherwise?

EDIT: http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/the-discover-interview-marc-hauser ...from the horses mouth.

DUNDOIT · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:13

Op's friend is a moron, you should not associate with "people" like him.

Morality can easily be put down to social contract imo. We are all just darwinian replicators after all, our morality/empathy is simply another tool that allows us to procreate in our current ( civilised ) enviroment .

MookJong · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:16

yantorsen said:
Yes it does, fear effects anxiety levels, which in turn is what effects "inner peace".

Inner peace isn't about feeling relaxed, it's about feeling your true state of existence and understanding that the idea of the self is simply a brain function that we carry around with us.....it is a total illusion.

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:18

Col_M said:
Anyway back to the hard wired morals. In Hauser's research the majority of subjects regardless of belief choose the same options in questions involving difficult moral choices. When asked to explain their choices the subject's haven't been able to explain why they made the moral choice they did. That has lead pshycologists with more experience and knowledge than me to believe that the desision making process is subconscious and hard wired into the primative parts of the brain that make basic primative decisions for us.
All very basically spelt out for other members of the forum who may not be familiar with his theory.
Who's studies and theories lead you to believe otherwise?

There is no reason to believe that it is Genetic, more than it is nurtured into us/environmental.

You, as in a Christian.

I'm not sure I mentioned my religious position? Thus it has no bearing on what I am saying.

As we're talking about morals and it's relation to Christianity I mean the bible, I just thought you'd read between the lines.

Oh, am I? The Bible wasn't written 2000 years ago though, so I wasn't sure, with that degree of inaccuracy you could have been talking about the Quran for all I know.

So was I

So why bring in religion?

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:19

MookJong said:
Inner peace isn't about feeling relaxed, it's about feeling your true state of existence and understanding that the idea of the self is simply a brain function that we carry around with us.....it is a total illusion.

I don't personally agree or believe in what you are talking about, so I cannot really comment. I'm glad it does stuff for you though.

DUNDOIT · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:19

Quran was written after the bible?

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:21

DUNDOIT said:
Quran was written after the bible?

Some of it...

something daft already!! · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:26

Have to ask Yantorsen, are you a Creationist as well? I know you love to post.

MookJong · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:27

yantorsen said:
I don't personally agree or believe in what you are talking about, so I cannot really comment. I'm glad it does stuff for you though.

That's fair enough it's not an easy thing to explain or understand unless you have had that realisation and felt it yourself.

We are so wound up in seeing ourselves as people living inside this universe we forget we are actually made from this universe.....where did you come from really?

Your just one example of an expression of matter.

Col_M · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:28

I actually said "almost 2K" years ago, there's no doubt that the writings that the bible are based on fall into that category.

I didn't bring religion into this thread, it's about morals and their relation to religion or Christianity in particular.

It just seems to me you're skirting around the subject and nit-picking at the things I say rather than coming up with anything against Hauser. Don't shoot the messenger

Anyway night, I have work tomorrow.

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:29

howiepoohs said:
Have to ask Yantorsen, are you a Creationist as well? I know you love to post.

As well as what? I'm not a YEC.

Septh · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:30

This is a lot longer thread than I thought it would be!
Bringing up some really interesting things too, all a bit beyond be tho

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:31

Col_M said:
I actually said "almost 2K" years ago, there's no doubt that the writings that the bible are based on fall into that category.

I didn't bring religion into this thread, it's about morals and their relation to religion or Christianity in particular.

It just seems to me you're skirting around the subject and nit-picking at the things I say rather than coming up with anything against Hauser. Don't shoot the messenger Anyway night, I have work tomorrow.

TBH I can't be bothered to argue against a Doctor from Harvard, but I know there are plenty of studies that disagree with his, and even his can be interpreted to mean different to what it supposedly means.

I realise this thread is about religion in relation to morals, but my post was simply about morality in general though.

Good night

Septh · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:36

yantorsen said:
TBH I can't be bothered to argue against a Doctor from Harvard, but I know there are plenty of studies that disagree with his, and even his can be interpreted to mean different to what it supposedly means.

I realise this thread is about religion in relation to morals, but my post was simply about morality in general though.

Good night

I always think the whole thing with religion is the interpetation, some people choose one way, others choose another way, it's that the difference between Jews and Christians? (this may not be true, do not slate me please)

something daft already!! · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:40

yantorsen said:
As well as what? I'm not a YEC.

As well as a Christian.

I was under the impression that Christian's believe that some sort of "God" created the world in six days and made man in this so called omnipresent one's image. I was curious as to how you feel about that. Is everything now as it has always been? These are the basics of the religion are they not? Sorry, I know it's a little off topic.

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:40

Septh said:
I always think the whole thing with religion is the interpetation, some people choose one way, others choose another way, it's that the difference between Jews and Christians? (this may not be true, do not slate me please)

The difference between Jews and Christians is less to do with interpretation, because the difference is so distinct. Jews do not believe that the Messiah (saviour) has come yet, and are still waiting for him (they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, most believe he existed though) because of the prophecies. Christians believe that the Messiah has already come (Jesus).

Septh · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:42

yantorsen said:
The difference between Jews and Christians is less to do with interpretation, because the difference is so distinct. Jews do not believe that the Messiah (saviour) has come yet, and are still waiting for him (they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, most believe he existed though) because of the prophecies. Christians believe that the Messiah has already come (Jesus).

I thought this difference was due to interptation, I was obviously ill in-formed

yantorsen · 19 Jan 2009 at 23:43

howiepoohs said:
As well as a Christian.

I was under the impression that Christian's believe that some sort of "God" created the world in six days and made man in this so called omnipresent one's image. I was curious as to how you feel about that. Is everything now as it has always been? These are the basics of the religion are they not? Sorry, I know it's a little off topic.

TBH I don't want to discuss this topic too far since there are plenty of threads on it already in SC. Feel free to post in there though, or if you just want to ask me then feel free to add me to MSN.

Exactly how the universe was created is not an important part of Christianity (some Christians will say it is though

) but that God began everything is, at least that's my opinion of it. Hence I'm fairly open minded and can see how many ways how it could have happened, and I see no reason to really believe one over another. I don't want to discuss the topic of creation any further in this thread though please