A day out ratting

[GavinBrown]

Oh and as for Sunama's posts... I don't really have enough info to make a judgement, tbh. If he came from an extremely poor background (no disrespect), and didn't have access to things like proper equipment or a gun, I can understand why he and his kin wouldn't want to go near a caught rat and had to devise a way to kill them from a distance.

So being poor is an excuse to boil them alive? They used live traps by the look of things, the animals could easily be submerged in cold water and drowned. That is far more humane than being boiled alive, as it is incredibly painful. You don't need a gun.

And noting from statements like "there's no quick way as far as rats go" and "whatever means necessary", I think you understand where I'm coming from here.

But in certain circumstances I can understand how you'd have to do what you had to do.

Ridiculous. There is never circumstance to boil a rat alive... never. This person had water... so he could've just drowned it. Much more humane. Why go all the way to boil some water and pour it all over the poor thing? I don't care how poor he is, that's not right.

I'm the last person to start jumping on someone from another country because of what they consider fair practice... within the realms of reason.

The only reason I see pouring boiling water over a live rat is sadism. Don't try to rationalise it.

I do hope you weren't talking about catch and release rather than 'homing', as that would be illegal (release of a pest animal into the wild, under the Wildlife & Countryside Act for one)

Very lax law, seldom enforced, if ever... and quite pointless. There are humane traps available on the market designed for catch and release, as some people think this is the humane thing to do. Should we get rid of these traps, and prosecute people for looking at alternatives besides killing? There was one person on this thread who said he catches and releases mice, so where's your criticism? Sometimes it's a better alternative than killing... that is, if it is practical.

Good first post but you are playing with words. Look at the Rat disease survey results, particularly the % of rats carrying diseases. Now tell me humans in the same locality carry as many infectious diseases or that the % of humans carrying disease is as high.

Although it is possible for humans to spread serious diseases in the UK it is very uncommon. Therefore your comment that "You either carry and transmit disease or you don’t" is rather naive.

Whether these diseases are common or not is not the point. I responded to the initial statement that rats carry more than humans, because I'm sure that isn't true. It's what they both can potentially carry. So, yeah... you either have a disease within you capable of being transmitted or you don't. The same goes with rats, because like humans, not all of them have those specific diseases (as those statistics show). So can and do are moot points because we both do anyway.

The point is, we carry a lot of nasties too, and they're very prevalent even when we're careful about it. I just think that when they get into the wrong place at the wrong time, then it's trouble. But by themselves?

Nope - we only really have Rattus Rattus and Rattus Norvegicus in the UK as most other varieties of Murinae can't readily adapt to the climate.

You're telling me you have no species of native rat in the UK? I find that hard to believe. I'm looking at the bigger picture too... Australia alone has over 30 different kinds of native species, and I'm sure the same applies for many parts of the world too. Hence, the term "specific purpose" is pretty moot. They're an important part of the ecosystem whether one likes it or not.

 

[Rainmaker]

You mean ratting being a working class thing as in killing rats in the sewers for a living back in the 70s? I don't know anybody working class who goes out into fields to go 'ratting' and then comes home and talks about their methods and which breed of dog is the most effective in the way you have done.

And yet all the hunting forums I frequent have tens of thousands of such people posting every day. Raising and working such dogs is a hobby in its own right, you know? Do you tend to look for such people, or do you just not know due to ignorance? I just wonder what you were basing that observation on.

And I didn't mean during the 70s specifically. Ratting and the killing of vermin with dogs/terriers has been the domain of the low classes for 100s of years and continues to be excellent fun to this day. Whether in a field or about town, ratting with dogs is awesome and has nothing to do with 'class'.

You clearly have a problem with it, but rather than start another discussion I suggest you read the previous 15 pages. No doubt most of your argument has already been covered in some shape or form. I presume you wouldn't lay poison or traps for any wild rat infestations in your home?

 

[DSherry]

And on the first page you mention how you go 'foxing' and 'shooting', the exact things you listed as toffs liking to do (as if there is actually a distinction between all those 'types' of hunting). So you are either lying and looking to annoy people or you are the toff as everyone suspects.

 

[Rainmaker]

And on the first page you mention how you go 'foxing' and 'shooting', the exact things you listed as toffs liking to do (as if there is actually a distinction between all those 'types' of hunting). So you are either lying and looking to annoy people or you are the toff as everyone suspects.

I said most 'toffs' would rather be doing those things than chasing the lowly rat. And if you re-read my post I was talking historically also. You seem to have a severe lack of knowledge of fieldsports, save that you deem them 'wrong'.

Why would I be lying? Is it not possible for a "non-toff" to catch foxes with a terrier, lurcher or snare, or to shoot pigeons? You seem quite ignorant on the topic, to be honest. I cba arguing the point with you.

You either believe I was raised on a council estate or you don't. Not my problem either way. I didn't post here for your benefit, I posted for the guys I know on this forum who enjoy a bit of sport. You can be as annoyed or not annoyed as you like - this thread isn't for you and wasn't posted for your benefit. If you want to be annoyed by it that's fine. You know where the back button is.

EDIT: Just twigged onto the 'as everyone suspects'. I think by 'everyone' you mean 'you'

 

[Whappers]

Errr. Since when has it been socially acceptable to take pictures during the hunting of an animal and post them on these forums Gotta say that I'm a little shocked even if it is a rat!

 

[Rainmaker]

Errr. Since when has it been socially acceptable to take pictures during the hunting of an animal and post them on these forums Gotta say that I'm a little shocked even if it is a rat!

Probably since the first time someone (i.e. me) tried it, and 'everyone'* thought it was awesome?







* May or may not be statistically correct, but let's not allow that to disbar us from using the word 'everyone'.

 

[Whappers]

Probably since the first time someone (i.e. me) tried it, and 'everyone'* thought it was awesome? [/SIZE]

You seriously think killing a defenseless animal is awesome

 

[Rainmaker]

You seriously think killing a defenseless animal is awesome

Oh for gawd's sake. Not another one who comes into a thread 15 pages late and then doesn't bother reading it? I think working my dogs is awesome, and enjoy ratting with them, yes. Read the thread then get back to me if you have any questions

 

[Whappers]

Oh for gawd's sake. Not another one who comes into a thread 15 pages late and then doesn't bother reading it? I think working my dogs is awesome, and enjoy ratting with them, yes. Read the thread then get back to me if you have any questions

I'm not even going to bother reading the thread if you cannot answer a simple direct question like that. You like working your dogs? Well then go and play with them in the park! I cannot even believe you think its acceptable to post pictures of an animal getting ripped apart on a "family forum" like this, let alone the fact that I am having to defend an animal's right on a so called "family forum". How is this thread still here?! I mean for crying out loud!

 

[GavinBrown]

Errr. Since when has it been socially acceptable to take pictures during the hunting of an animal and post them on these forums Gotta say that I'm a little shocked even if it is a rat!

Just be thankful he isn't posting kills on various traps and bragging about it. My personal view: if you kill an animal, fine, no need to gloat about it. Just let it be. I've never seen anything honourable in bragging about killing an animal that has zero chance against you.

If it were 1 on 1 vs a bear, bare fisted, then that's something to talk about!

 

[Rainmaker]

I'm not even going to bother reading the thread if you cannot answer a simple direct question like that. You like working your dogs? Well then go and play with them in the park! I cannot even believe you think its acceptable to post pictures of an animal getting ripped apart on a "family forum" like this, let alone the fact that I am having to defend an animal's right on a so called "family forum". How is this thread still here?! I mean for crying out loud!

1) I answered you perfectly and directly.
2) Playing in the park does not equal work.
3) I can't even believe you think it's unacceptable to post pics of this.
4) Animals don't have human rights or any real rights at all, but they do have a certain legislative protection from un-necessary suffering. Ratting is perfectly legal and thus not against any 'rights' the rat has.

 

[GavinBrown]

4) Animals don't have human rights or any real rights at all, but they do have a certain legislative protection from un-necessary suffering. Ratting is perfectly legal and thus not against any 'rights' the rat has.

I think it's important to understand the distinction between animal welfare and animal rights. I strongly believe in the former.

Far as this protection from unnecessary suffering is concerned, it's why I think things like glue traps should be prohibited.

 

[Rainmaker]

I think it's important to understand the distinction between animal welfare and animal rights. I strongly believe in the former.

Far as this protection from unnecessary suffering is concerned, it's why I think things like glue traps should be prohibited.

Indeed. I referenced 'rights' because our friend Wappers brought them up, or rather stated he felt the need to stand up for what he perceives as a rat's "right". A right to what, I'm not entirely sure. You'll be hard pressed to find a fieldsportsman who isn't a strong advocate of animal welfare; whether on the farm, in the home or on the field. I for one strongly promote good animal welfare. Animal rights and the lunatic fringe of humaniacs is something of a different matter.

 

[Whappers]

1) I answered you perfectly and directly.

edit: apologies, you could have been a bit clearer upon second read through...

Me: You seriously think killing a defenseless animal is awesome?
You: Oh for gawd's sake. Not another one who comes into a thread 15 pages late and then doesn't bother reading it? I think working my dogs is awesome, and enjoy ratting with them, yes. Read the thread then get back to me if you have any questions

2) Playing in the park does not equal work.

Yes it does. It works them on a cognitive and physical level. How you can say this does not

3) I can't even believe you think it's unacceptable to post pics of this.

Are you for real?!

4) Animals don't have human rights

Of course they don't! They're animals!

or any real rights at all

In my opinion, everything has a right to live, even if the law doesn't permit.

I am not having a go at you, I want to be clear in case there is any misunderstanding etc. I'm just saying what I feel, but I'm a little shocked to say the least. I seriously think this forum's credability as a family forum has been tainted as a result of this thread.

 

[GavinBrown]

I would say the right to be free from torture. If any animal had a "right", then it would... or it should be that.

 

[Rainmaker]

edit: apologies, you could have been a bit clearer upon second read through...

Glad you found the answer to your question

Yes it does. It works them on a cognitive and physical level. How you can say this does not

But it isn't WORK. A working dog isn't a working dog because it can play in the park. Any pooch can do that. A working dog is what he is because he's been selectively bred for generations from best-to-best breeding to do a particular task well. In this case, controlling vermin. You don't get great hunting dogs by breeding the best stick-chaser or ball retriever.

Are you for real?!

Yes.

Of course they don't! They're animals!

Glad we agree. As I'm sure you're aware a certain faction of people would have you believe an animal has equal rights to a human being. I was simply being clear, and of course that quote is only part of my sentence.

In my opinion, everything has a right to live, even if the law doesn't permit.

Unfortunately the real world doesn't bear that out.

I am not having a go at you, I want to be clear in case there is any misunderstanding etc. I'm just saying what I feel, but I'm a little shocked to say the least. I seriously think this forum's credability as a family forum has been tainted as a result of this thread.

No misunderstandings, and no offence taken. As I said earlier in the thread I don't really give two hoots if someone disagrees with me I certainly don't think the forum's credibility is in any way harmed. The owner and dons seem to agree.

Have a good one.

 

[Whappers]

But you are KILLING an animal and posting pictures on a FAMILY forum!!

I just don't understand where you find the need to lets your dogs kill another animal and then post pictures of it on a so called family forum.

I get the feeling that I am not going to change your opinion and would probably be going round in circles discussing this forever. But, next time you're out "ratting", just place yourself in the position of the rat for a minute and imagine what pain you are letting your dogs put it through.

 

[Rainmaker]

But you are KILLING an animal and posting pictures on a FAMILY forum!!

I just don't understand where you find the need to lets your dogs kill another animal and then post pictures of it on a so called family forum.

I get the feeling that I am not going to change your opinion and would probably be going round in circles discussing this forever. But, next time you're out "ratting", just place yourself in the position of the rat for a minute and imagine what pain you are letting your dogs put it through.

I don't make a habit of shielding my family from the realities of life, nature, or the food cycle. If someone else wants to that's their prerogative, but I'm not about to censor a perfectly natural, daily activity in case someone gets offended. The thread title was abundantly clear. As I've stated before in this thread, ratting is great fun for adults and young alike. All the hunting forums I frequent are family forums too. They carry far more 'explicit' photos than I've posted here, and I see no issue with that. We simply have different ideas about what our children should learn about the way the world, nature, and the food chain works.

As for putting myself in the rat's position, I have done many times. You think you can hunt without knowing your quarry? Rats need to be controlled, period. I'm personally 110% happy doing it with dogs, and find it much more humane and effective than spewing poison around the place so the rodents can die a horrible and protracted death.

I daresay neither of us would wish to concede our opinion, but that's life. You don't like it, and I love it so much I'm going again tomorrow. C'est la vie!

 

[Hairboi]

Bit harsh on the rats O_O

 

[UncleBob]

You're telling me you have no species of native rat in the UK? I find that hard to believe. I'm looking at the bigger picture too... Australia alone has over 30 different kinds of native species, and I'm sure the same applies for many parts of the world too. Hence, the term "specific purpose" is pretty moot. They're an important part of the ecosystem whether one likes it or not.

I'm not disputing their part in the ecosystem, but the genus rattus only contains 56 species worldwide. The majority of species seem to be in Asia and Indonesia and a handful are unique to certain islands.

Only the Black Rat and Norway Rat are in the UK, both are alien introductions. The Black Rat is widely accepted to have been brought over by the Romans, wheras the Norway Rat is documented from the early 18th century (initially thought to be from Norway, hence the name) and probably arrived via trade from China.

The UK has no native rats, and a small number of native rodents (a few species of mice, voles and the red squirrel make up the bulk of a very short list).