Vibration / shudder under breaking - possible tracking issue??

Soldato
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22 Jul 2006
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When I come to break in the car to a standstill or to an almost standstill the car shudders, it shudders enough for the passengers in the back to notice it.

Any ideas what it could be? Only really noticed it over the last few months.

Car is an ST24, lowered on full suspension kit with 18" alloys if that helps :P
 
Warped disks!!! I just fitted new disks and pads back in September. Mintex Extreme I think they were. Only done about 2k miles since.

Any reasons to why they could have warped??
 
Could be caused by overheating or stamping on them a bit to hard.
Another possibility is the ball joints, or worn bush's
 
they may not have, its just juddering under breaking is a pretty standard symptom of warped disks. Usually due to excessive heat or bad fitting (ie if the bolts aren't done up fully or in the correct manor...)
 
Hmmm, well I dont often break to hard and the alloy wheels are fairly open spoked so plenty of airflow to them.

Bushes were done on the car 2 years ago, could they have gone again in such a short period of time?

Not sure when the last ball joints were done though, are these expensive?
 
is it true that in reality disks never warp its actually uneven transfer of pad material that gives the warped effect? (ex boss told me)
 
I had this on my Fiesta recently.

Turned out it was a sticking calliper which had heated the front passenger side disk and warped it.

Initially it was barely noticeable and so only the pads were changed - later i noticed the juddering had worsened and took it back.

Solution was to clean the callipers and replace the discs although my car occasionally makes similar sounds suggesting the pads are once again rubbing.

Any rhythmical rubbing or squeaking sounds coming from the offending breaks?

gt
 
I fail to see how braking hard could possibly create warpage in any brake disc as the pressure should be more even and constant under heavier loads. A partially stuck piston can create high points or run out on a disc, however if it is shuddering at low speeds that rules disc warp right out. Same with wheel balance, these would only manifest themselves at much higher speeds and you would no doubt feel that imbalance through the column.

What I'm envisioning is a slightly unhappy marriage between disc and brake pad compound maybe. In which case be a little more progressive and firm with the brakes for a while. See if it goes away at all. Failing that if its bad bad, then try an alternate compound on the pads.
 
You shouldn't come to rest after a heavy stop, and then hold the car on the brakes - i.e. imagine braking hard from 70+mph down a motorway slip road to a halt at some traffic lights, and then holding on the footbrake (being lazy and not using the handbrake).

Apparently, that hot spot can cause brake disc warpage, or a build up of friction material on the disc, or whatever it is....
 
To add on,
the other part cools down faster than where the pads are in contact, and due to heat expansion the disk experiences shear around the pads.
 
Any rhythmical rubbing or squeaking sounds coming from the offending breaks?

gt

No squeaking or wierd noises what so ever, thats whats making me quiz what it could be.

You shouldn't come to rest after a heavy stop, and then hold the car on the brakes - i.e. imagine braking hard from 70+mph down a motorway slip road to a halt at some traffic lights, and then holding on the footbrake (being lazy and not using the handbrake).

Apparently, that hot spot can cause brake disc warpage, or a build up of friction material on the disc, or whatever it is....

I always use my handbrake, so I dont think this could be an issue.



Car is solid at higher speeds, no juttering / vibrations / wheel movement, which again I guess cancels out tracking?
 
As has already been said it sounds just like "warped discs".
However although the name suggests such, they are in fact not warped, in the true definition.

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a race car or a road car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.
Regardless of pad composition, if both disc and pad are not properly bedded in, material transfer between the two materials can take place in a random fashion - resulting is uneven deposits and vibration under braking.

It gets worse. Cast iron (the material the huge majority of "steel" brake discs are actually made from) is an alloy of iron and silicon in solution interspersed with particles of carbon. At elevated temperatures, inclusions of carbides begin to form in the matrix. In the case of the brake disk, any uneven deposits - standing proud of the disc surface - become hotter than the surrounding metal. Every time that the leading edge of one of the deposits rotates into contact with the pad, the local temperature increases. The cast iron under the deposit begins to transform into cementite (an iron carbide in which three atoms of iron combine with one atom of carbon). Cementite is very hard, very abrasive and is a poor heat sink. If severe use continues the system will enter a self-defeating spiral - the amount and depth of the cementite increases with increasing temperature and so does the brake roughness. Drat!

The obvious question now is "is there a "cure" for discs with uneven friction material deposits?" The answer is a conditional yes. If the vibration has just started, the chances are that the temperature has never reached the point where cementite begins to form. In this case, simply fitting a set of good "semi-metallic" pads and using them hard (after bedding) may well remove the deposits and restore the system to normal operation but with upgraded pads. If only a small amount of material has been transferred i.e. if the vibration is just starting, vigorous scrubbing with garnet paper may remove the deposit. As many deposits are not visible, scrub the entire friction surfaces thoroughly. (NOTE Do not use regular sand paper or emery cloth as the aluminum oxide abrasive material will permeate the cast iron surface and make the condition worse. Do not bead blast or sand blast the discs for the same reason.)
The only fix for extensive uneven deposits involves dismounting the discs and having them Blanchard ground - not expensive, but inconvenient at best. A newly ground disc will require the same sort of bedding in process as a new disc. The trouble with this procedure is that if the grinding does not remove all of the cementite inclusions, as the disc wears the hard cementite will stand proud of the relatively soft disc and the thermal spiral starts over again. Unfortunately, the cementite is invisible to the naked eye.
Taking time to properly bed your braking system pays big dividends but, as with most sins, a repeat of the behavior that caused the trouble will bring it right back.

Hope that helps clear things up.
 
It really bugs me when people say "warped discs" because this very rarely happens. As others have said, it's the transfer of friction material which is the problem in 99% of cases where there is suspected disc warpage.

To the OP: get your wheel balancing checked, and also get your alloys checked to see if they've buckled at all. I have one alloy on mine which is ever so slightly buckled and always causes a headache when it has to be balanced.
 
It really bugs me when people say "warped discs" because this very rarely happens. As others have said, it's the transfer of friction material which is the problem in 99% of cases where there is suspected disc warpage.

To the OP: get your wheel balancing checked, and also get your alloys checked to see if they've buckled at all. I have one alloy on mine which is ever so slightly buckled and always causes a headache when it has to be balanced.

Totaly agree , particularly the last bit having the same problem on my car.
 
Hope that helps clear things up.

Good man Entai. Thats about the best description/diagnosis for the causes and effects of braking judder and run out problems I've ever seen. I'm going to keep that for reference when another BMW customer comes along with 4500 mile ATE's! Thank you.
 
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One of my disks had a tiny little crack in it and thats what caused my car to judder under braking. The steering wheel would also shake under braking.
 
Good man Entai. Thats about the best description/diagnosis for the causes and effects of braking judder and run out problems I've ever seen. I'm going to keep that for reference when another BMW customer comes along with 4500 mile ATE's! Thank you.

Those power discs certainly do have mixed reviews don't they?
Personally, I don't think there's a better disc for a BMW than the OEM part.
 
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