For either party to be right or wrong they would have to exist. So surely this question is a moot point.
For those who are religious
- Thread starter daven1986
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For either party to be right or wrong they would have to exist. So surely this question is a moot point.
Actually it is up to what you think as you are choosing to worship the Christian God. You do that in the knowldege that he condems unbelievers to eternal torment for not believing in him. So do you think it is acceptable that I get condemed to eternal torment for not believing in God? Is that the actions of a God you think is worthy of worship?
No, I'm saying that Satan is the first person to bring the idea or eternal life for sinners. Pretty much the rest of the bible bar a few which mainly relate to satan. says teh penalty for sin is death.
for example one of the few passages that actually says eternal
is totally contradicted by
where satan is burnt to ashes, so how can he still be alive for eternity?
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The worship of the Christian God as we view him is due to the fact that we appreciate what he did in sending his son to provide salvation. And if his command is to worship him in the fashion that he sets out for a new testament church in the Bible then we have to do that.
But in doing that you also accept his darker side, the fact that he will condem people to eternal torment for the "sin" of not believing him. Do you just overlook that or do you accept it as a just way of doing things?
I think I know what your saying but not totally sure what point you are trying to bring out.
I think you are talking about spiritual death v literal death. For example if we are born sinners as a result of Adam sin then we are born in a condition that can be described as spiritually dead. The soul within us lives forever but the body dies. Death is as a result of sin. I think maybe this is what you are trying to say but not sure.
Again its back to the attributes of God as the bible suggests. Before someone becomes a christian they realise that they deserve to be punished as a result of the wrong they have done. In light of this they do therefore acknowledge that they deserve to end up in hell. Once we realise that a way of escape from the judgement is possible then we appreciate this and worship is commanded.
Two concepts here are grace and mercy.
Grace: giving us something we don't deserve
Mercy: holding back what we do deserve.
If we believe God is just, righteous, sinless, holy then we have to accept these attributes and take what he says in his word to be true.
Sorry if I cant explain it the way you want me to.
Nope I am in full agreement that the penalty for sin is death. This therefore highlights the need for salvation. I think we are maybe saying the same thing but don't know it!
Do you ever doubt your faith? Do you question whether you may be wasting a part of a short and finite life on this stuff?
Also, perhaps you could clarify for me. I lead a fairly standard life, I care for my family and friends, don't perpetrate any particular evil deeds but presumably I will go to hell because after careful consideration I do not believe in god [sic]?
Ok I think where we differ then is this.
You will probably be familiar with the term to be born again. We are both in a condition which could be described as spiritually dead or at a distance from God. The wages of sin that you talk about refers to a spiritual deadness. Yes, we all will die literally, but the soul within lives forever. It is the soul that lives forever. The act of being born again can be called being spiritual reborn and therefore we are linked to God through his son. i.e "one mediator between god and man". I presume that your suggestion is that once we die then that is it and that is the end result of sin.
You will probably be familiar with the term to be born again. We are both in a condition which could be described as spiritually dead or at a distance from God. The wages of sin that you talk about refers to a spiritual deadness. Yes, we all will die literally, but the soul within lives forever. It is the soul that lives forever. The act of being born again can be called being spiritual reborn and therefore we are linked to God through his son. i.e "one mediator between god and man". I presume that your suggestion is that once we die then that is it and that is the end result of sin.
And where do you get this eternal soul from.
The bible clearly states that once you are dead you are dead. At the second coming the righteous will raise from the dead and be taken to heaven. After a further 1000 years the sinners will raise and watch Satan die by fire, before god sends fire down to cleanse the earth.
Your "soul" does not go straight to heaven.
The bible clearly states that once you are dead you are dead. At the second coming the righteous will raise from the dead and be taken to heaven. After a further 1000 years the sinners will raise and watch Satan die by fire, before god sends fire down to cleanse the earth.
Your "soul" does not go straight to heaven.
And that is the problem I have with your God. Why exactly do I deserve to be punished for not believing in him? Why is that wrong and why is it deserving of an eternity of torment?
But why? Why do I deserve to end up in hell? While not perfect I certainly haven't done anything that any reasonable person would think deserving of an eternity of torment in hellfire. But that seems to be my fate according to your religion.
But it is God that is deciding that I deserve to end up in eternal torment. He is the one that has set the whole system up. If you don't worship him, you burn for eternity. There is no real mercy here as he is the one that decided that I needed to burn in the first place. He isn't saving me from torment he is commiting me to it. In short, it is a divine protection racket.
So where does your soul go then before the second coming? If you look at the story of jesus death there was another guy crucified there too. According to the bible jesus said on the cross "today, you will be with me in paradise". Obviously his body was left on earth but this suggests the soul goes to heaven and at the second coming christians are given a new body as stated in revelation.
Nothing happens to you soul, it's just like being a sleep. Non existence. Only a couple of people went straight to heaven. the bible says the rest have to wait for the second coming. where those who died and children will be taken to heaven first.
Come on that's not fair, it also helps generate revenues for the organisations which perpetuate it and it keeps people ignorant and unquestioning. At least get your facts straight
Drivel, all religions state peace, love and understanding. Some people use it as an excuse. When it can't be used as an excuse. It's about politics or weapons of mass destruction.
I think again I would refer to Luke 16 like I mentioned above somewhere.
"The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
So reading that we would see, he died, then was in hell. So obviously the inner being (soul) was still alive? Your right some people went directly to heaven. For example Enoch was 'translated' and was caught up to heaven without dying.
And I am with you in that the dead rise first, then those which remain as per revelation again.
At least we agree on one thing - a sheep just dies!
"The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
So reading that we would see, he died, then was in hell. So obviously the inner being (soul) was still alive? Your right some people went directly to heaven. For example Enoch was 'translated' and was caught up to heaven without dying.
And I am with you in that the dead rise first, then those which remain as per revelation again.
At least we agree on one thing - a sheep just dies!