For those who are religious

Brian Stuart · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:42

vonhelmet said:
God can be omnipotent and still defer choice to others.

Agreed but why? No one seems to be able to answer that very simple question, why?
Are we Gods playthings?

Vonhelmet · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:44

Brian Stuart said:
Agreed but why? No one seems to be able to answer that very simple question, why?

Why did he create us? Because he chose to. I can't really say I'm in a position to fathom God's motives at the best of times.

Brian Stuart said:
Are we Gods playthings?

Does it seem like he's playing with us?

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:47

vonhelmet said:
I honestly don't know whether hell is just permanent death. It could be. I'm not overly concerned to be honest - given the choice, I'd sooner be in heaven than permanently dead, in your best case scenario.

Not really best case. You can't have a loving god who could condone eternal pain.

I would rather be dead tbh than either. Why? because you would get bored, if like some people believe God changes you so you don't get bored and don't sin etc. then I wouldn't be me anyway.

Brian Stuart · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:49

vonhelmet said:
Why did he create us? Because he chose to. I can't really say I'm in a position to fathom God's motives at the best of times.

That is a stock answer "Gods works in mysterious ways"

Does it seem like he's playing with us?

Indeed it does. The only way you will get to heaven is by worship, not good deeds. When you look at some of heartbreaking things that happen to good people and some of the good things that happen to the truly terrible that is the only conclusion I can draw (other than non-existence of course)

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:51

Brian Stuart said:
That is a stock answer "Gods works in mysterious ways"

Indeed it does. The only way you will get to heaven is by worship, not good deeds. When you look at some of heartbreaking things that happen to good people and some of the good things that happen to the truly terrible that is the only conclusion I can draw (other than non-existence of course)

I think I'm right in saying that the bible doesn't require you to worship in the modern day sense. Only that you believe.

Vonhelmet · 5 Mar 2009 at 19:56

AcidHell2 said:
Not really best case. You can't have a loving god who could condone eternal pain.

Why not?

AcidHell2 said:
I would rather be dead tbh than either. Why? because you would get bored, if like some people believe God changes you so you don't get bored and don't sin etc. then I wouldn't be me anyway.

OK then, let's have a cheating metaphysical answer. Boredom is a sensation brought on by spending time doing something you're not interested in, broadly speaking. Heaven is outside of time as we know it. Ergo, you cannot technically get bored in heaven.

More realistically, I'd ask why you think you'd get bored in heaven.

Vonhelmet · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:00

Brian Stuart said:
That is a stock answer "Gods works in mysterious ways"

Ah, right. That's probably because he does.

Although even with that being said, the point stands - I don't know why God created us and I don't think anyone does, except him. Does that actually matter all that much?

Brian Stuart said:
Indeed it does. The only way you will get to heaven is by worship, not good deeds. When you look at some of heartbreaking things that happen to good people and some of the good things that happen to the truly terrible that is the only conclusion I can draw (other than non-existence of course)

You're right, you can't get to heaven by good deeds. The Bible says so. This, as mentioned previously, is because God is holy and can't tolerate any sin. Even the tiniest sin is enough to taint you.

Here's a rough and ready and not particularly pleasant example...

Let's say you have a barrel of champagne, and a barrel of poo. If you take a spoonful of champagne and put it in the barrel of poo, what do you have? A barrel of poo. Now, if take a spoonful of poo and put it in the barrel of champagne, what do you have? Well, ok, the concentration isn't as high as in the first case, but I still wouldn't drink it.

I'm sure you can work out what the champagne and poo represent...

Vonhelmet · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:01

AcidHell2 said:
I think I'm right in saying that the bible doesn't require you to worship in the modern day sense. Only that you believe.

Well, Jesus says that all that is needed is to believe (or more properly, to accept), but worship pretty much follows from that.

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:02

vonhelmet said:
Why not?

You can't understand why not?
Some one who is loving and sacrificed there only son, but then torments billions of beings for eternity. I'm seeinga pretty huge problem here.

vonhelmet said:
OK then, let's have a cheating metaphysical answer. Boredom is a sensation brought on by spending time doing something you're not interested in, broadly speaking. Heaven is outside of time as we know it. Ergo, you cannot technically get bored in heaven.

More realistically, I'd ask why you think you'd get bored in heaven.

It's eternity. As humans we would get bored. if God changed us so we were not bored, didn't sin etc. then I wouldn't be me anyway.

vonhelmet said:
Well, Jesus says that all that is needed is to believe (or more properly, to accept), but worship pretty much follows from that.

does it? certainly not in the modern sense of going to church.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:04

steve-h said:
... knowing what is right and what is wrong has nothing to do with religion, common sense more than anything

There's no such thing as right and wrong without religion.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:06

Hatter The Mad said:
Religion enslaves intellect and makes a virtue out of not thinking.

Religion should be abolished. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and practice of worship, but religion that is lead and compels membership should be abolished.

Hypocrite much?

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:07

yantorsen said:
There's no such thing as right and wrong without religion.

That depends how you look at it. many of eh write and wrongs of religion. coincide with what is best for the species in terms of advancement and surviving.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:07

R420LA6X2/4MNA said:
Religion - A load of **** from a by gone era that somehow has positioned itself as something essential to modern life, indeed life in general.

Looking around our world, I see no sign of God.

Did you watch around the world in 80 days?

I'd say there is plenty of signs of God/god.

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:08

yantorsen said:
I'd say there is plenty of signs of God/god.

Non of which you can proof and is totally subjective.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:08

AcidHell2 said:
That depends how you look at it. many of eh write and wrongs of religion. coincide with what is best for the species in terms of advancement and surviving.

It's all very well saying that, but nobody I know lives by what is "best for the species". It'd probably be best for the species if all us men were attracted too rugby players (female ones) then our children would be stronger and bigger. But we all go for skinny (relatively) weak women.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:09

AcidHell2 said:
Non of which you can proof and is totally subjective.

Of course. But so was the statement it was countering.

Vonhelmet · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:10

AcidHell2 said:
You can't understand why not?
Some one who is loving and sacrificed there only son, but then torments billions of beings for eternity. I'm seeinga pretty huge problem here.

Does God do the tormenting? I'm not sure that part is well documented.

I suppose it comes back to what you were saying earlier about whether hell exists as it's so often pictured. I don't know, so I'm not going to get dragged into that. Surely the point is that death is worse than heaven, at best, as I said earlier.

AcidHell2 said:
It's eternity. As humans we would get bored. if God changed us so we were not bored, didn't sin etc. then I wouldn't be me anyway.

Perhaps heaven is really exciting... It is heaven after all.

AcidHell2 said:
does it? certainly not in the modern sense of going to church.

Since when is church not worship? And since when do Christians only worship at church?

Glaucus · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:13

vonhelmet said:
Does God do the tormenting? I'm not sure that part is well documented.
?

Of course he does if it existed. he is the creator of everything and the master. So controls and creates everything.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:14

AcidHell2 said:
Of course he does if it existed. he is the creator of everything and the master. So controls and creates everything.

No, created everything in the beginning. Does not control everything though.

yantorsen · 5 Mar 2009 at 20:17

AcidHell2 said:
Very true. but I still find it very odd that you would worship in a place that you know supports and teaches the wrong ideas. I know that everyone religious ideas are diffract and even in the same denomination you'll get differences. But some of the differences like hell and the pope are huge.. But then I much prefer independent churches where people discus religion in groups and learn of each other, rather than being taught by an institution.

Also my post was meant as a question, sounds a bit more like bashing, but it was meant to be posed as a question.

Why would you find it odd? Surely God is everywhere?