at last some positive news on housing 3x caps

Jesus.... well I'm not going to be moving away from renting til I'm about 30 then! If this goes ahead I will only be able get just under £60k for a house if I was to go right now...that won't get me anything, nor will it in the near future. No where around here besides perhaps Luton has anything that cheap!
 
Not really. The default rate on UK mortgages (even those classified as subprime) is still low. The problem has been a dramatic reduction in available credit due to problems stemming from the securities and derivatives market and incorrect risk rating on mortgage backed securities mainly from the US.

Do you honestly believe that the default rate on UK mortgages will stay at the levels it's at? With unemployment rising rapidly, lots of fixed rate mortgages due to expire, equity levels falling and interest rates to sky rocket, defaults will rise massively. This figure will always lag behind the true state of the economy.

You can argue that our indebtedness as a nation has made us more vunerable to this external contraction (which it has), but the root cause of it has not been debt taken on by UK borrowers or companies.

We're the root cause of our own problems. This did not simply start in America as Brown and co. would like you to think.
 
You state having a mortgage over 3 times your salary has never pushed you over the affordability, yet here we're in a situation that as you agree, will push you over the edge. Is that not a slight contradiction?

It's not. I can afford my house even when rates hit 12-14%. It's not a question of not having money. The point is - when you start loosing money on being home owner, no one is going to want to be home owner.

Home owners aren't switching mortgages every two to three years because they like arrangement fees, improving their credit scores and chatting with their financial advisors. We keep switching mortgages because no bank in UK ever offered good rates for long periods of time, and they definitely won't now, not when interest rate is ridiculously low - it's just not how it works.

And it's never affordability alone that creates housing market. All of you presume that when the current home owners stumble and fall, and market collapses, it will allow you jump on a cheap path to ownership at the bottom of the ladder. That's not going to happen. House market, and mortgages, depend on houses being good investment long term and on those properties being collateral. Banks money depends on you paying them extra £100,000 in interest over 25 years, and you are not going to buy into this just to be bound to the same old flat for 25 years, be deep into red for 15 of those and come out on the other end as a finally recovered negative equity survivor when you're 50 years old.

The moment houses in Britain are:
- more expensive to mortgage than to rent
- impossible to sell on
- stop gaining any considerable value long term (or loose you money long term)
you end up with Japanese scenario - owneship doesn't make sense, being financially bound to place for over 30 years doesn't make sense, investing in improvements, doing places up and renovations stop making sense. And additionally in short run defaulting and allowing repossession can only save millions of people a lot of money. With immediate effect.

This creates chain reaction - people allow reposession, banks are left with half a town worth of 250,000 loans on houses now worth 130,000, and even if they tried to sell them again, at 120,000 (plus interest) loss they can be only bought by people earning 43,000 a year, which is unrealistic in country where over night building crews, painters, plumbers, carpenters and related supply trades become unemployed, the whole infrastructure based around credits, loans and financial advice lay off employees and landlords with multiple properties just begin to bleed money left, right and centre shot in wallet by mid term fixed rate mortgages on their buy to lets just coming to an end thus starting yet another chain reaction.

This is not going to be victimless revolt. This isn't going to be socialist putch where poor lower classes become land owners and the riches go live in council houses. You will not buy those mythical 70k flats all over the place - no one will lend you even 50% LVT when banking sector is left with unimaginable losses and worthless piles of defaulted brick and mortar every 50 yards all over the country.


If you have a reliance on either of the following:
  • Low Interest Rates
  • Introductory Mortgage Rates
  • Re-mortgaging
  • House Price increases

...then you could not afford your mortgage on the original terms, which is what you agreed to.

Every mortgage depends on those things. Everywhere in the world. There is no scenario where bank helps you buy into property to loose money. You want low interest rates and best offers. They want you to remortgage. And the whole lot depends on house price increases, otherwise there is no collateral for bank or incentive for you to buy in first place.
 
Last edited:
It's not. I can afford my house even when rates hit 12-14%. It's not a question of not having money. The point is - when you start loosing money on being home owner, no one is going to want to be home owner.

It's almost the inverse of being in a bull market! But I think houses are a little different to most other investments. Culturally we're very focused being home owners and are certainly encouraged that this is the only option in the long term. Even in the event of house prices falling, you'll still find some buyers. A lack of credit obviously reduces this somewhat, but people's long term aims still remain the same. I certainly don't have a problem buying in a declining market, assuming the property is fairly valued compared to long term averages.

The moment houses in Britain are:
- more expensive to mortgage than to rent
- impossible to sell on
- stop gaining any considerable value long term (or loose you money long term)
you end up with Japanese scenario - owneship doesn't make sense, being financially bound to place for over 30 years doesn't make sense, investing in improvements, doing places up and renovations stop making sense. And additionally in short run defaulting and allowing repossession can only save millions of people a lot of money. With immediate effect.

I don't believe we'll see a replication of Japan's housing market. A number of factors for this include:
  • Japan's housing market was more overvalued than our's ever was even at it's highest point.
  • They run a supplier economy (net exporters) opposed to our debt consumption model (net importers).
  • Japan's culture relies on saving unlike ours. Which leads to end consumers seeing a falling asset (housing) as a non-investment.
  • Their boom occurred during a period of global economic growth as opposed to the depression we're facing/already in. The only global solution will be to try and print our way out of this situation, hence the ability to get to an income multiple of 3x without having to decrease house prices by another 50%.
 
Do you honestly believe that the default rate on UK mortgages will stay at the levels it's at? With unemployment rising rapidly, lots of fixed rate mortgages due to expire, equity levels falling and interest rates to sky rocket, defaults will rise massively. This figure will always lag behind the true state of the economy.

Which is a problem of unemployment, not income multipliers. 3x or 5x, no income means no payment.

We're the root cause of our own problems. This did not simply start in America as Brown and co. would like you to think.

The trigger started in america, the vunerability of our economy is down to Labour's mismanagement, but this isn't really a surprise for anyone who has looked at Labour's track record in economic management...
 
Good debate here. The way I see it with 3x multiples, the government are preparing for interest rates and inflation to fluctuate heavily but slowly upwards and want to implement it asap before it happens. People are going to get burnt, there is no 'quick fix' and I see this lasting over 10 years.

The only way anything over 3-4x multiples will be allowed now are if mortgage rates were fixed for life, 100% portable, no/low redemption fees and good affordablility. The government are trying to 'force' stability and cut out affordability issues that arise with uncertain futures in the market ( which will always be present), which isn't a bad thing but is it the right way as house prices could tumble.

In America life time mortgages are common and affordable ( around 5% + fairly good deposit). Will they do it over here? I doubt it, the banks seem to 'run the country' but slowly the government getting its power back. I see this as a 'quicker fix' and would keep house prices higher than 80k-100k average which looks like what could happen and keep bank losses as low as possible.
 
Last edited:
It depends. I deal with mortgages and whilst a guideline 3x salary level would be good, it doesn't always work. Someone on £120k/year, they net roughly £6k a month. A mortgage of £400k would be no more than £2600 a month - like that's not affordable. The FSA doesn't have a clue, sack this stupid government and their stupid quango and get the BoE BACK in charge ffs!!!
 
Should just leave the free market to itself, laissez faire, if someone's in trouble its there own fault ultimately, OK, it means we would all be allot worse off in comparison to the situation we might be in if these "stimulus" and "protectionism" plans worked, but thats a big if.

Kill them all. God will know his own
 
Back
Top Bottom