Speaker cables, you DO get what you pay for!

Albums are always on the cards but the only problem is the lack of decent music these days
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Haven't bought a lot recently either. Time to go back a few years and stock up :D

9designs2 said:
Do you get what you pay for....No, do cables make a difference yes ... do they settle in over time, quite often yes....
Cost is not a measure of quality, listen to them and decide works best, then look at the price.... Each will have an effect on the signature of the system, that doesn't always mean better, if means different.
CAT is not that nice, it's lean, and hard sound with a sharp treble. Lacking weight and warmth in the bass. BUT sometimes a soft overblown loose system can be flattered by the effect.
Funny how every time someone finds something they like there is the snake oil gang trot out the same old rot about nothing makes any difference..bla bla bla..... Often based on the view from using some low end so so kit........ It's all relative, no point putting a £10/meter cable on a £100 amp.... but don't **** it off on a £2000 amp !!!......
Amazes me why those that say everything sounds the same and we are all mad for paying more than 50pence, bother reading and posting on a HiFi forum/thread that is discussing and looking to find and share improvements !!!
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Have not tried expensive speaker cables, but might test out some home brew ones from zanash if I get the chance, or bother with it. Tested out a few ICs though, cheap old thing, a Mark Grant LV61s, and also a homebrew based on a Chris venhaus design with silver wire I got from zanash, teflon, helix weaving, cotton and all that jazz.

I honestly gave up playing around trying to hear differences, as I couldn't hear anything profound. The DIY silver cable I made did sound maybe a bit clearer, but honestly this could be down to it actually being there, me being bored and my brain giving me an excuse to stop, or just me dreaming it. I have kept the DIY cable in mainly because it cost a touch less than the Mark Grant one and I have materials left over to make another 4 more for other kit.

I have realised that all this cable mumbo jumbo and testing is a waste of time, and my time is better spent enjoying my music + films, with my money being put away from the next NOTICABLE upgrade, mainly speakers, amp, source upgrades, and especially new music.

To conclude, I don't disbelieve that cables make a difference, just that from my little dabble into it that they don't do much at all, with no real difference to hear, and the money + time are better spent elsewhere. I will dabble into it again once I have some proper high end kit, especially when I audition some Logans. The prodigy ones I heard hooked up to a Pathos 6 channel amp were simply the best thing I have ever heard !
 
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mrk said:
Well I have no reason to make up random stuff out of thin air and I'm a regular hardware changer and only settle with stuff I'm happy with so am quite used to noticing differences.

The new cables have a slightly wider sound on certain musical materials, that's all to be honest!
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First of all, don't get me wrong, I'm not at all suggesting you or anyone is making anything up when suggesting that speaker cables make a difference.

My point is that in believing that it is the cable itself making a difference you are dismissing a more logical conclusion that the difference is psychological.

It's exactly the same argument used in alternative medicine and whatnot - yesterday I had a headache, took a sugar pill and I was cured. So the sugar pill is an effective headache remedy? No, it is simply that the placebo effect is extremely powerful, and dismissing it (as people continue to do in the hi-fi world) when weighing up results of tests like these mean that you will come to illogical results. It's the same reason people buy up anything in hi-fi nowadays.

Just think about this - why is it that in 40 or so years of hi-fi consumerism, not one company has been able to demonstrate controlled tests that prove speaker cables (and a lot of other things) make a difference? We know the protocol, tests have been done in the past and have failed, yet no-one has ever managed to come out and prove that something like this does make a difference.
 
I fully understand where you’re coming from and can relate (from my past thoughts) but there seems to be a distinct 50/50 separation between people who do believe in different cables = different sound and people who don’t – respect to both parties of course but I just feel there is a sound difference and many reviews also confirm this in their reviews (one example @ avreview).

Would you agree then that over time a standard copper cable (un-terminated or non oxygen free) “could” fray at the ends or the cable itself age over time (talking a few years of daily usage) and thus cause the sound to lose its punch and so of course when you install new cables you do hear a difference?

If so then I will agree that this may well be what I have experienced here and hopefully the QEDs don’t suffer aging due to being terminated, shielded and ofc?!

Some other links to support both sides:

- http://www.avforums.com/forums/interconnects-speaker-cables-switches/48803-speaker-cable-test.html
- http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929
- http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-face-off-1

It’s a can of worms really, like religion...... :p
 
mrk said:
I fully understand where you’re coming from and can relate (from my past thoughts) but there seems to be a distinct 50/50 separation between people who do believe in different cables = different sound and people who don’t – respect to both parties of course but I just feel there is a sound difference and many reviews also confirm this in their reviews (one example @ avreview).

Would you agree then that over time a standard copper cable (un-terminated or non oxygen free) “could” fray at the ends or the cable itself age over time (talking a few years of daily usage) and thus cause the sound to lose its punch and so of course when you install new cables you do hear a difference?

If so then I will agree that this may well be what I have experienced here and hopefully the QEDs don’t suffer aging due to being terminated, shielded and ofc?!

Some other links to support both sides:

- http://www.avforums.com/forums/interconnects-speaker-cables-switches/48803-speaker-cable-test.html
- http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929
- http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-face-off-1

It’s a can of worms really, like religion...... :p
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Of course there is a split in people who will believe and who won't, and yes it is quite like religion, "alternative" medicine, spirituality and whatnot. The point being that it is up to the people making claims about the thing itself to prove it, since it is impossible for me to prove to you that a difference between two things does not exist. I do believe however it is very important to make this clear to people and it is not fair to miss-lead people, especially those new to audio with pseudo-science and claims with no evidence to back them up. There may well be a "50/50" split but I think if you look into the people who are the big players in the subjectivist side they tend to have a familiar background - magazine writers/product pushers who have not written a single paper in their life who seem to believe they are immune to placebo/marketing effects and tend to have an ulterior motive. I'd rather listen to the people who write peer reviewed journals in the same way i'd go to see a doctor for help rather than a stick waving reiki practitioner ;)

Onto the tests:
The avforums test is nothing new, i've posted similar tests on here in the past measuring the response of different cables. Such tests don't really help either side though, because those in the subjective camp seem to believe that their ears can hear things that highly sensitive devices can't.

The yahoo test sounds on the surface like very good evidence, but in reality it's pretty useless. It says nothing of the method used, sample size or anything of the sort, and we do not know how the 60% preference relates to chance, hence it is impossible to draw any form of conclusion from it. They are correct in stating that low gauge cable will sound different if it has too low an inductance to carry the signal, but 14 gauge is generally considered to be sufficient for most speakers, I'm guessing this was driving Quad ESL's or soemthing that would need something thicker.

Audioholics test - again, just pointing out what science has shown, that inductance is the most important factor. It's a shame they haven't done some A/B/X tests to re-affirm their points though because as with the avforums test it won't help people relate to the real world.
 
After my iPod earbuds broke I thought I'd look around and splash out on a nice pair.

£3,000 and a few nailbiting months later I have a new pair of headphones! They sound exactly the same as my old ear buds.

Then I disassembled two old grammophones and welded the horns together into a makeshift headpiece. THE SOUND IS LIKE JESUS SINGING MY EARS. Would fully recommend others to do the same.
 
A cable fraying, then losing punch in the sound !

mrk, stop killing soo many l4d zombies, it's making you lose the plot :p
 
btw sorry mrk but I can see your point about cables becoming oxidised/frayed or whatever that might lose their conductivity over the years, but you can always save yourself a penny by chopping the ends off and strip some more off ;)
 
oli collett said:
Of course.......
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Oh trolling again !!!!........ So sound to me it is possible to equally convinced that you will NOT hear a difference, so you mind and hearing is effectively switched off to any change....... I have also experienced this.... if you not in the right mood, stressed etc, then you just not open minded and receptive...

What strikes me are peoples closed minds, and same old line about needing some resistance or inductance measurement to "prove it"......
Is science so advanced now it can measure everything the human hear can detect, and every electrical effect possible....... I guess not....

The reality is you either believe your ears or you believe rubbish written on the Internet ....by those who have an opinion to labour... in either side of the argument....

Strange how everyone can "see" how one TV screen is so much better than another, but when it comes to sound, we are all witches and believing in snake oil if we claim to hear a difference......

Some stuff sounds the same some sound different, that's why you have the demo, and chose the stuff that works, and leave the stuff that doesn't....
It ain't rocket science, just learn how to listen !!!..... and leave the Internet BS at the door.

After over 25 years of playing audio, you learn to trust your won ears and judgement, if it doesn't make an improvement no problem, I don't care or buy it..... If it does I buy.... Wouldn't have built up my system for the hell of wasting money if it didn't work !

Placebo effect works in both direction in my view....
 
I really don't know why people post on this forum about cables etc. Im not having a go at the OP, far from it. I believe a cable can have an impact on the sound, all be it a sometime very subtle one.

There are people on here that will dispute a 10k cd player sounds any different to a £10 one, the same for speakers etc. they will post links from articles of blind, double blind, triple double frapachino blind tests that prove it, after all, it must be true, its on the web.

Enjoy your cables mate, im glad you think they're worth the cash. I found the XT cable shrill and overly bright, but they tend to exaggerate that quality, it can brighten up dull systems or take some over the edge.

For what it's worth I used to use Chord Rumour II, which is a around £10 a metre, great cable but when I moved all my hi-fi gear I didn't have a spare £200 to splash out on new cable. I bought some Van Damme 2x2.5mm UPOFC Studio Grade Blue Series Speaker Cable, it cost under £2 per metre. It's a damn good cable, it does lose out a little in detail to the Rumour II, but hey, it was £150 cheaper!.
 
All I say to the OP is do a blind listening test with a friend swpping the cables a few times and mark down what you think sounds better, I will eat my hat if you can tell the difference after 25 random swaps of the cable.
 
With a name like Van Damme I would not complain either :D

I did read that the XT was bright but it did depend on the system pmping thorugh them and the speakers being used.

The C325bee and 914i are not bright components (with tone defeat enabled and no software EQ being used!) but more neutral with punchy bass and detailed treble so it suits it well with a emphasis on wideness without being overly bright!.
 
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9designs2 said:
Oh trolling again !!!!........
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I am not trolling by any sense of the imagination. This is the second time i've been accused of this, first by your friend Mr Sukebe and now by you. I am simply pointing towards facts rather than pseudo-science. Please refrain from suggesting that I am trolling in future because it spoils the debate.

9designs2 said:
So sound to me it is possible to equally convinced that you will NOT hear a difference, so you mind and hearing is effectively switched off to any change....... I have also experienced this.... if you not in the right mood, stressed etc, then you just not open minded and receptive...

What strikes me are peoples closed minds, and same old line about needing some resistance or inductance measurement to "prove it"......
Is science so advanced now it can measure everything the human hear can detect, and every electrical effect possible....... I guess not....
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We had an interesting discussion on open mindedness the other day in speakers corner. The main point to apply here is what I have said throughout this thread.

Person A swaps his speaker cable, hears amazing differences in sound and claims the speaker cable is clearly the thing that is making the difference.

Person B points out to the person that they are dismissing the placebo affect and other psychological effects.

Which person is being open minded?

Also, if you read my posts I have pointed out time and time again that no scientific measurement will ever prove that something does not make a difference. But yes, err, I'm quite certain that science is quite advanced enough to pick up everything the human ear can detect and then a lot more - see ultrasound and infrasound.

9designs2 said:
The reality is you either believe your ears or you believe rubbish written on the Internet ....by those who have an opinion to labour... in either side of the argument....
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Rubbish written on the internet? I'm trusting the stuff that's put together by people who have spent years doing audio research and worked in speaker design, room acoustics etc. I'm not referring to magazine reviews by people whose qualifications are x number of years experience in the audio industry.

9designs2 said:
Some stuff sounds the same some sound different, that's why you have the demo, and chose the stuff that works, and leave the stuff that doesn't....
It ain't rocket science, just learn how to listen !!!..... and leave the Internet BS at the door.
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If it sounds different, you can DBT it to prove it. I've been saying this all along, DBTing is a very basic application of science that requires no super-duper measuring devices.

9designs2 said:
After over 25 years of playing audio, you learn to trust your won ears and judgement, if it doesn't make an improvement no problem, I don't care or buy it..... If it does I buy.... Wouldn't have built up my system for the hell of wasting money if it didn't work !
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That's great and I'm fine with that - but in my mind it's not fair to tell people that something WILL make a difference based upon your experiences without admitting that such experiences are prone to psychological affects that do impair your judgement.

9designs2 said:
Placebo effect works in both direction in my view....
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Of course it does, but I'm not the one claiming that because I've not heard a difference it's proof that there is none - in fact nothing of the sort. There is nothing about my claims in this thread that are affected by placebo.
 
Dangerous Dave said:
All I say to the OP is do a blind listening test with a friend swpping the cables a few times and mark down what you think sounds better, I will eat my hat if you can tell the difference after 25 random swaps of the cable.
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See I have no problem with this and can already confirm what the results will show, which is exactly what I’ve mentioned in the Op that the XT give a wider more special sound which is more pleasing and less fatiguing. Whether this is because my old cables have aged, become oxidised or whatever happens to them over the years I don't know.

Then there will be 11 posts following it saying it‘s impossible and proof in the form of a pie chart and then some is needed :p



*Reason I say this is because I’ve chosen tracks that I am very familiar with and ones I have on CD/FLAC to listen to so know their “feel” inside out. I know that when I play those tracks in the car there is a lot of missing information that I can hear when played through my PC setup above whilst when played through the headphones it’s less lively but more laid back still.

I’ve not taken part in any cable debate here before but it does look like something that’s best left alone perhaps!
 
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9designs2 said:
Oh trolling again !!!!........ So sound to me it is possible to equally convinced that you will NOT hear a difference, so you mind and hearing is effectively switched off to any change....... I have also experienced this.... if you not in the right mood, stressed etc, then you just not open minded and receptive...

What strikes me are peoples closed minds, and same old line about needing some resistance or inductance measurement to "prove it"......
Is science so advanced now it can measure everything the human hear can detect, and every electrical effect possible....... I guess not....

The reality is you either believe your ears or you believe rubbish written on the Internet ....by those who have an opinion to labour... in either side of the argument....

Strange how everyone can "see" how one TV screen is so much better than another, but when it comes to sound, we are all witches and believing in snake oil if we claim to hear a difference......

Some stuff sounds the same some sound different, that's why you have the demo, and chose the stuff that works, and leave the stuff that doesn't....
It ain't rocket science, just learn how to listen !!!..... and leave the Internet BS at the door.

After over 25 years of playing audio, you learn to trust your won ears and judgement, if it doesn't make an improvement no problem, I don't care or buy it..... If it does I buy.... Wouldn't have built up my system for the hell of wasting money if it didn't work !

Placebo effect works in both direction in my view....
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Disagreeing isn't trolling, it's called an opinion. :rolleyes:

Your argument instantly fails when you try and compare audio cables to visual equipment.

An LCD screen of different technologies is a completely different situation than people comparing cables made from different metals.

If you were comparing speakers to displays then maybe you'd have a point.

The same can be said about people who think a 'high quality' HDMI cable can improve picture quality. It's the same thing, it's the idea that cabling has a huge difference.

Now I know HDMI is digital, so it's slightly different, but when you have an audio cable of sufficient gauge then that is enough.

Seriously, why would a cable transmit treble differently to another cable? It doesn't make any sense.

Physics goes against the idea of that. As long as the gauge is sufficient to pass the signal through the cable then you'll get no difference when it's an analogue cable.

People will convince themselves of anything if they think there's a difference.

Coat hangers as speaker cable anyone?

The only area I believe cable quality makes a difference is build quality. Though the difference it makes is on how durable the cable is and how long it will last, plus they look very nice but that's about it.

Soon you will get people recommending gold plated CAT6 cables because youtube streams are better quality with them.

How about a gold plated oxygen free SATA cable? Transfers data from your HDDs faster and improves the quality of your photographs, movies, music and makes your games even more realistic!

It's funny now you never see people going on about high quality DVI cables, yet you do with HDMI.

The fact that they can transmit electricity wirelessly should be enough for people to realise all this cable-quality-affects-sound stuff is rubish.

It's the same electrons going in to the cable that go in to the speaker.
 
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my own opinion is that speaker cables do make a difference

BUT i also believe in deminissing returns. its kind of like building PCs, some people just want the best. seriously - would you notice the 3ms difference in file loading speed of a SSD hard drive vs traditional hard drive?

its money well spent for some, irrelevant for others :)
 
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