Osteopaths - Who's used these miracle workers?

Liefrich said:
That's rubbish; there is plenty of Osteopathic and Chiropractic support in the medical community.
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But no studies backing up their claims....

The degree's these individuals go through are all science based and the training is rigorous.
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Has no relevance at all.

Even if you said was not true, if it helps the individual it is never a "waste of money".
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Spending money on a placebo is a waste, you may as well give the patients sugar pills and spend the money on hiring more nurses.
 
Liefrich said:
That's rubbish; there is plenty of Osteopathic and Chiropractic support in the medical community. The degree's these individuals go through are all science based and the training is rigorous.
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erm no - the whole problem with them is that it isn't science based - there is no basis whatsoever in the rubbish Chiropractors believe in its complete quackery - they go for dodgy degrees at dubious institutions

Do any serious red brick universities have these quack courses running - erm no.....

chiromap.gif


(map circulated by florida professors when someone tried (and failed)to set up a school at Florida State university)
 
Those darn osteopaths and their beliefs. Pah, who in their right mind would believe that you actually can damage your joints? Bunch of silly quacks. :rolleyes:

And psychologists too. Silly quacks, believing that people have brains. What a load of tosh.
 
I don't know whether it is quackery or not, but osteopathy works for me and many people that I know.

From personal experience, several weeks of pain and painkillers with no positive result following a whiplash injury which got better after 2 sessions with an osteopath who also practices accupuncture. Months of painkillers for a mysterious knee pain with no diagnosis even after x-rays, scans and trips to the physio, followed by complete cure following 2 weeks of treatment by the same osteopath.

I would like to point out that for those nay sayers, osteopathy and accupuncture are effective treatments for animals too which to me indicates that it is not all in the mind.
 
dowie said:
erm no - the whole problem with them is that it isn't science based - there is no basis whatsoever in the rubbish Chiropractors believe in its complete quackery - they go for dodgy degrees at dubious institutions

Do any serious red brick universities have these quack courses running - erm no.....
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Sorry mate, but with an increasing awareness of how well chiropractic intervention works, more and more people are going and having their quality of life drastically improved and their problems completely relieved.

Yes it may have started off in the mind of a frankly silly man, but it has medical efficacy and there's proof everywhere.
You say there's lack of efficacy and danger with chiropractors, the same can be said for many drugs on the market prescribed by your fully trained medical doctors :)
 
dmpoole said:
The main university that teaches our Doctors & Nurses at the University Hospital Of North Staffordshire is Keele Medical University which I go to quite often to give tours with 14 to 19 year olds.
I just found this - http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/pt/ug_courses/bsc_osteo.html
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You might want to try reading it too

its a quack school that has persuaded a university to accredit it's degrees - it isn't part of the medical school

if you care to take a google you might also find that there are Chiropractor 'degrees' - these are also not actually run at actual universities but at 3 different 'schools' within the UK

Do you not think its odd that an osteopath school in the south (Hertfordshire) gets is degrees accredited by a Keel University in the north or a Chiropractor school outside Oxford gets its degrees accredited by the University of Wales?

I wonder how many universities rejected the offers to accredit their courses?

FWIW I wouldn't take the university accreditation thing too seriously a few 'Universities' (ex polys) also offer 'degrees' in homeopathy - it doesn't take away from the fact that it is complete BS
 
What's the matter dowie, did an osteopath steel your dummy?

You've asked for evidence, but not provided any yourself. All you have done is give conjecture of a schools quality based on the location of the school, and mostly on its neighbouring schools, and a quote from the US medical research mag which is irrelevant to the UK, because the US do not license nor certify chiropractors, ergo, anyone can do it.

Have you read the warnings associated with Vitamins?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3754205.ece
http://www.personalhealthzone.com/vitamins_supplements/side_effects_interactions.html
How's that for a supplement that we are bombarded with?

How about anti-biotics?
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/antibiotics.html

Oh wait, it's conventional medicine, must be safe.

Oooh, my back is hurting. I can't possibly go to the Chiropractor or Osteopath where I'll have a 30min session and walk out feeling fine, I simply must go to the GP, get referred to a specialist, go to them a week later, then wait for 4 months for an operation, then go and risk death by going under the knife, then spend 8 weeks recovering. Yes, I must do the latter.
 
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Dj_Jestar said:
Oooh, my back is hurting. I can't possibly go to the Chiropractor or Osteopath (ie. someone who isn't even a medical professional but will nevertheless pretend to be one whilst providing a mixture of massage and placebos to make me think I am better). It makes far more sense to go to the GP, who will listen to all my symptoms, ask for my medical history and my family's medical history, give a tentative diagnosis of ankylosing spondilitis, refer me to a specialist if I want a second opinion or further confirmation, where I will be re-examined, the diagnosis will be confirmed and a prescription of Voltarin, Arthrotec or some other suitable anti-inflammatory will be issued. At the same time, the specialist will instruct me on a course of regular stretches and exercises to maintain and improve my flexibility, and warn me about the various ways in which I might inadvertently damage my back. Yes, I must do the latter.
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Fixed.

I speak from personal experience; I do have ankylosing spondilitis, that's exactly how I was diagnosed and treated, and I wouldn't trust a chiro anywhere near my back.
 
dowie said:
You might want to try reading it too

its a quack school that has persuaded a university to accredit it's degrees - it isn't part of the medical school

if you care to take a google you might also find that there are Chiropractor 'degrees' - these are also not actually run at actual universities but at 3 different 'schools' within the UK

Do you not think its odd that an osteopath school in the south (Hertfordshire) gets is degrees accredited by a Keel University in the north or a Chiropractor school outside Oxford gets its degrees accredited by the University of Wales?

I wonder how many universities rejected the offers to accredit their courses?

FWIW I wouldn't take the university accreditation thing too seriously a few 'Universities' (ex polys) also offer 'degrees' in homeopathy - it doesn't take away from the fact that it is complete BS
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University of Wales is a very old institution. Being a "Red Brick" University has little regard to its quality in certain areas. For example Warwick is not a red brick yet it is arguably one of the best business and maths schools in the UK.

Your prejudice is mind-blowing, plenty of doctors recommend people to go to Osteopaths and Chiro's...It's a science its not like they are telling you to hold a piece of jade for a month in one palm and spin around 9 times an hour. They are using manipulation techniques on areas of your body to relieve pain, how is that "quack" medicine and whats the difference between that and physio?
 
dowie said:
FWIW I wouldn't take the university accreditation thing too seriously a few 'Universities' (ex polys) also offer 'degrees' in homeopathy - it doesn't take away from the fact that it is complete BS
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For what it's worth I stand on the same side of the fence as you but after working at the NHS in the position that I am, I do see/hear things that shouldn't really work.
Most Doctors/Consultants I talk to will admit that Complimentary Therapy works with some people and that's why I'm having to stock my playroom with equipment.
I've now added lights & sound, smelly stuff and 4 massage beds because even though it shouldn't work - it does.
We've been using Complimentary Therapy for many years by using a Vicar, Iman & Priest and with some people it works wonders where conventional medicine doesn't.
There is no denying that a placebo is a very powerful treatment.
 
Liefrich said:
So you've posted one website and that's it, chiro's are definitely all "placebo" medicine.....well done
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Good systematic reviews and meta analyses are considered the most reliable form of scientific research so here goes.

a systematic review on spinal manipulation:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576805


"....The most rigorous of these studies suggest that spinal manipulation is not associated with clinically-relevant specific therapeutic effects."

and another systematic review:-


http://www.mdconsult.com/das/citation/body/134833448-2/jorg=journal&source=MI&sp=16168590&sid=0/N/16168590/1.html?issn=


"...CONCLUSIONS: Collectively these data do not demonstrate that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition. Given the possibility of adverse effects, this review does not suggest that spinal manipulation is a recommendable treatment."

Now can I just clarify that this DOES NOT mean that patients recieve no benefit from visiting osteopaths and chiropracters (because many actually do - just read through this thread) it just means that the treatment they recieve offers no benefit above that of a placebo. Again, one could argue that if they gain some relief of their symptoms then does it matter whether its due to the physiological effects of the treatment or the placebo effect?
 
Liefrich said:
So you've posted one website and that's it, chiro's are definitely all "placebo" medicine.....well done
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No, I've posted one website which comprehensively debunks chiropracty. It's only a start, but there's plenty more where that came from. Of course, if you're not actually interested in scientific evidence or quantifiable results, there's nothing left to say.

I did not say that chiros are "definitely all 'placebo' medicine"; they are most definitely not all placebo medicine, and that's part of the problem. Messing around with people's spines and joints is not something to be undertaken by a bunch of amateurs who think they're medical professionals just because they've done a handful of non-accredited courses and bought a piece of paper from a degree mill.
 
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Evangelion said:
Fixed.

I speak from personal experience; I do have ankylosing spondilitis, that's exactly how I was diagnosed and treated, and I wouldn't trust a chiro anywhere near my back.
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Yay for crap quoting. Everything you've posted about orthodox medicine is also done for Chiropractic. They are qualified, they are certified, they will ask about your medical history.
 
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