The all encompassing BNP thread - keep all crap in here.

Dolph said:
Further to the above, I've found the statistics you tried to present inactivity ones as, namely benefit claimants.

http://www.ippr.org/members/download.asp?f=/ecomm/files/britains_migrants.pdf&a=skip

Commissioned in 2007 for Dispatches on Channel 4.

Table 5.9 contains the unemployment claim rates (highest is 5%, somalians, bangladeshis etc, the lowest is poles and the USA, rounds down to zero.)

Table 5.10 contains income support claim rates, Those born in the UK come in at 15th on 4% of the population, there are a significant number of immigrants on both sides of the population. (For the avoidance of doubt, the report uses a definition of immigrant that involves people not born here, not based on race or skin colour for people who were born in the UK).

Table 5.11 Shows a similar picture for disability claims, with UK born sitting at 19th in the table.

Table 5.12 is child benefit, which is available to all and shows nothing really of interest.

Table 5.13 shows proportions living in social housing, again, UK born sit in the middle of the table (15th), with plenty of immigrants on either side.

There is some work done on ethnic group rather than country of birth around section 6, but it's more focused on education and employment than benefit claims.

Now, I'll just quote from the conclusion.



Emphasis as per the report.

The study does also acknowledge



The bottom line is that it's far from clear cut that immigrants are not economically useful, some of them aren't, and indeed I'm not convinced (and this study did not look at it) that many of those working and not claiming benefit reach the break-even point where their presence provides a net economic benefit, when all factors are considered. I've said before and I'll repeat, for the avoidance of doubt, that I think the immigration system needs major reform, and that we should not be allowing in many of the people that we do. But let's at least do it on an honest evaluation of what's actually happening.
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The bottom line is that the immigrants from USA, Australia, South Africa etc are doing well but the immigrants from Pakistan etc are doing very badly.
Conversely the numbers coming from USA, Australia, South Africa are very small whilst those coming from places that have a net drain on the country are coming in huge numbers.
Odd how the report forgot that bit......
A few people contributing a lot is not a good argument for massive immigration of people who drain the economy is it.
 
vee70 said:
Those countries would beg non religious people to go and visit if he tourist trade dried up. They get a clear financial return for alowing johnny foreigner into their country. Plus the tourists go home again 14 days later, have no right to stay, don't use the local education system, pay for the health system if they need it etc, etc, etc.
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Ah I see where you're getting at - No I couldn't comment on that as the only places I have lived are here, Aus and NZ in which I have always worked and paid taxes. But I will say that a level of reason is needed when regarding a blanket observation of immigrants - we're not all equal by any lengths.

vee70 said:
I don't beleive we should ask more of the natives than of the immigrants.....
That all depends upon where things stop. When demands are made to allow practices that are illegal in our country, to change laws etc to suit their culture then things have gone too far. Two small but recent requests are open air cremations and animal slaughter without stunning the animal. Tip of the iceberg in all probability.
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Oh I whole heartedly agree - but not allowing these things are as much for public health and animal welfare as they are offensive to residents. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have the smell of burning flesh wafting across the neighborhood because someone decided to have an open air cremation. That's a wholly repulsive idea.

vee70 said:
It probably is not just you, then again I could sacrifice the odd Lamb Jalfrezi for lower levels of unemployed people, cheaper housing, schools that had low levels of non english speakers etc, etc, etc.
Lots of good european artists there. Artists who did not even need to step foot in the UK for me to see their work too :) Where are the great African or Indian artists that have enriched you?
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As far as the food goes, I'm not sure how happy I would be to have to eat sausages and mash or cottage pie every night. There are only so many ways that I can deal with mince, pastry and potato ;) I am only partly joking :D
Perhaps but I'm sure that there are a great many artists who have immigrated to different countries and have contributed to the art world, I'm not particularily well versed in contemporary art to be able to point out case points but it's not a long stretch of imagination to suggest that this is likely the case.

vee70 said:
It is simply an example. There are plenty of TV programs, websites, books, magazine articles etc that focus on other cultures. If I ever find one of them interesting enough I'll go there to se the culture for myself rather than seek out the Egyptian quarter of Soho to see if they've erected any Pyramids recently or built a shrine to Anubis.
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Heh I'd love to see them get the permission to throw a pyramid up in Soho :D

vee70 said:
The antipodeans have culture? Out of interest, what is New Zealand culture?
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New Zealand is very similar to a stereotypical western culture but with strong influences to Maori and Pacific Island cultures. In many ways New Zealanders are possibly a bit more multi culturally tolerant than other countries and despite being a bit of a mixing pot it's accepted that the New Zealand culture is made up of whichever culture you identify with whether it be Maori, Indian, Samoan, Fijian, Australian etc. I grew up with a great many friends who are Chinese, Indian and Pacific Islanders and still keep in contact with them, and every single one of them call themselves New Zealanders regardless of their cultural heritage.

vee70 said:
Yet the majority of immigrants on the dole appear to be non EU.
Are there statistics for EU scroungers available?
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I think they are represented in the graphs but the graph is a percentage of a population rather than a direct number of immigrants. It's why the graph is somewhat misrepresentitive of the issue.

vee70 said:
I have never voted for the BNP in any election, poll or anything else. I actually voted Tory locally and UKIP in the European elections. However the garbage that is spewed out about the BNP in this thread and across the news/media coupled with the off the cuff "immigration is good" posts that completely fail to explain why they have that viewpoint prompted me to post and questions some of the rather baseless assumptions being posted.
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Fair enough - altho I personally am struggling to find a good clear positive representation of the BNP - the focus seems to always be on one or another policy rather than a fully representitive view of what would happen if the BNP got into power.
 
D.P. said:
Plus I thought all these dirty foreigners were stealing jobs from good honest native white folk. Those stats show the completely opoiste, they can't get as many jobs as the average white person!

HYPOCRITE
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Does this mean that you can't use the lazy briton excuse to validate immigrant anymore then?
 
SteveOBHave said:
Yes you did. You also would've heard that I live here, work here and pay taxes like any other gainfully employed person. I do not claim benefits and I contribute to the local economy through my spending. I don't send money home so I'm not draining the economy other than through my holiday spending which admittedly is probably more than the average Brit because I don't go to Blackpool every year.

My living is as much effected by the decisions of voters here as anyone else so I believe that I am entitled to an opinion.
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Everyone is entitled to opinions. Out of interest does your visa let you vote? I assume not.
 
vee70 said:
Again they have identified a genuine issue, how would you deal with it?
Is there view on homosexuality different to islamic opinion, catholic opinion or "black cultural" opinion? Odd that you deride them for being homophobes but claim to be enriched by cultures that actually stone gays to death.
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From an extreme point of view you're right but can we not accept that there might be some positive aspects that the communities have to offer?

vee70 said:
How anyone can claim immigration is beneficial because "we getz curryz" I really cannot fathom.
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Harsh misrepresentation of my argument Vee, you know that's not my soul argument and neither is it a fair summary of all we've been discussing.
 
SteveOBHave said:
As far as the food goes, I'm not sure how happy I would be to have to eat sausages and mash or cottage pie every night. There are only so many ways that I can deal with mince, pastry and potato ;) I am only partly joking :D
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I thought minced lamb was the national dish of NZ :p
On a more serious note there are lots and lots of good cookbooks detailing British food, we have a pretty wide array of fruit, vegetables, seafood, fresh water fish, meat, herbs, spices, cheeses, breads, nuts etc. More so than many other countries. It would be just as easy to reduce Indian cooking to rice and cumin. Ever had a summer pudding for example? Yummy and rather British.
Stag said:
Perhaps but I'm sure that there are a great many artists who have immigrated to different countries and have contributed to the art world, I'm not particularily well versed in contemporary art to be able to point out case points but it's not a long stretch of imagination to suggest that this is likely the case.
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All the art that springs to my mind is European and again it is all only of value since the artist died in poverty in his own country.

Stag said:
New Zealand is very similar to a stereotypical western culture but with strong influences to Maori and Pacific Island cultures. In many ways New Zealanders are possibly a bit more multi culturally tolerant than other countries and despite being a bit of a mixing pot it's accepted that the New Zealand culture is made up of whichever culture you identify with whether it be Maori, Indian, Samoan, Fijian, Australian etc. I grew up with a great many friends who are Chinese, Indian and Pacific Islanders and still keep in contact with them, and every single one of them call themselves New Zealanders regardless of their cultural heritage.
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I forgot just how many people came from all over the world to create NZ, it is indeed a melting pot. The UK however has a very different history and is not a new nation made up of people from all over. Odd too that the immigrants here are Pakistani, Muslim, Indian, African etc first and not British first (in my experience at least).
Stag said:
Fair enough - altho I personally am struggling to find a good clear positive representation of the BNP - the focus seems to always be on one or another policy rather than a fully representitive view of what would happen if the BNP got into power.
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They highlight some issues, I do not think that they have any decent solutions but at least they bring these issues up for debate. It is far too easy for some kid to post "BNP are evil, voting for them makes you a moron" without ever having to explain some sort of intelligent reasoning. The BNP have a lot in common with Islamic belief. They are anti single mums, homosexuality and Islam treats non muslims as second class citizens or Kafir. Indeed kafir even have to pay a special tax to muslims for not being muslim. I find it very, very odd that one ideology can be so easily tolerated by the very same people who immediately see the other as the ultimate evil when they are so similar.
 
SteveOBHave said:
From an extreme point of view you're right but can we not accept that there might be some positive aspects that the communities have to offer?
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Of course, but we can't seem to get honest debate because the sides are so polarised and entrenched. Neither seems willing to admit that the other has some value. The figures make it perfectly clear that the majority of immigrants are a net drain but the pro lobby concentrates only on the small numbers that add to the economy.
The social aspect of immigration can be measured by how the native population feel about it. 80% are unhappy therefore immigration has gone too far and is out of hand.
On the plus side there are no logical reaons why an immigrant can not come here, settle in, add to the community, add a touch of their culture to ours in a way that gives a hint of flavour rather than overpowering it and so on.
However it seems to be such a divisive issue that there is no middle ground. What worries me most is the inability of people to actually back up or explain their opinions with cold hard facts. It is far too easy to scream racist at people who disagree or ask for explanation and that is almost exclusively what I am seeing. Not including you in that.
Stag said:
Harsh misrepresentation of my argument Vee, you know that's not my soul argument and neither is it a fair summary of all we've been discussing.
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I was just trying to integrate into the forum style :p
 
vee70 said:
Plus the tourists go home again 14 days later, have no right to stay, don't use the local education system, pay for the health system if they need it etc, etc, etc.
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Not all foreigners have access to the education system. When I first applied for example, it was on a dependent visa (i.e. - i'm travelling with my mother and am dependent on her) but was rejected and given a very poor excuse as to why since it would allow me to recourse to public funds and the local education system. As soon as I applied for a student visa which meant that I would have to pay for the education, took him about 1 minute to stamp the passport with the visa. I have no recourse whatsoever to any public funds (barring NHS) and am not allowed to work full time, except in summer.
 
Dolph said:
on most of the benefits checks, pakistanis are doing better than uk born...
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You mean better as in taking more?

Table 5.1 shows less than half of Pakistanis are employed vs 78% of UK born.
Table 5.2 shows similar levels of unemployment benefit 4%UK 5%Pakistan
Table 5.4 shows average UK wage is higher than average Pakistan wage
Table 5.9 shows 1% of UK taking unemployment related benefits vs 2% pakistan
Table 5.10 shows 4% on income support vs 11% pakistani
5.11 shows 6% invalidity vs 10% pakistani
5.12 shows 14% child benefit vs 29% pakistani

I'm not sure how those figures can be pro immigration..........
 
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