The all encompassing BNP thread - keep all crap in here.

[PermaBanned]

So effectively you are saying that the low paid manual worker can go hang for all you care? What an interesting socialist attitude that is.

I never said that. I was implying that, in this Capitalist world, if you can't do a job better than the next man then you shouldn't go complaining about it.

 

[RDM]

I never said that. I was implying that, in this Capitalist world, if you can't do a job better than the next man then you shouldn't go complaining about it.

It isn't about doing a better job, it is about doing the same job for less. Someone over from Poland, happy to live in a shared house for a few years and get a decent amount of cash (from a Polish point of view) is going to be able to survive on a lot less than someone who is going to live in the UK permanently and try and raise a family etc. But hey, who cares what impact this influx of cheap labour has on the low paid worker, it is good for the economy.

 

[PermaBanned]

It isn't about doing a better job, it is about doing the same job for less. Someone over from Poland, happy to live in a shared house for a few years and get a decent amount of cash (from a Polish point of view) is going to be able to survive on a lot less than someone who is going to live in the UK permanently and try and raise a family etc. But hey, who cares what impact this influx of cheap labour has on the low paid worker, it is good for the economy.

And who sais that these Polish workers aren't trying to raise money to bring up a family.

Just because it's happening in our country suddenly makes cheap labour a 'bad thing'? Please, we've been exploiting countries like China and many African countries for centuries. I didn't see you taking up such a right wing view then, not that it would have done any good. Essentially, you only care about yourself? Since we seem to be putting words into each other's mouths here...

 

[Chimerical]

It isn't about doing a better job, it is about doing the same job for less. Someone over from Poland, happy to live in a shared house for a few years and get a decent amount of cash (from a Polish point of view) is going to be able to survive on a lot less than someone who is going to live in the UK permanently and try and raise a family etc. But hey, who cares what impact this influx of cheap labour has on the low paid worker, it is good for the economy.

Who cares.

There's nothing you can do about it other than protectionism which would simply drive up the price of the end product.

 

[RDM]

And who sais that these Polish workers aren't trying to raise money to bring up a family.

Just because it's happening in our country suddenly makes cheap labour a 'bad thing'? Please, we've been exploiting countries like China and many African countries for centuries. I didn't see you taking up such a right wing view then, not that it would have done any good. Essentially, you only care about yourself? Since we seem to be putting words into each other's mouths here...

Which is all immaterial to my original point that the economic benefit of immigration is not seen by all members of society and will be massively outweighed by the disadvantages for the low paid manual worker. If we keep ignoring this fact then all that will happen is that support for parties such as the BNP will rise. Effectively you are saying "Tough luck, you are going to have to live with it." to a chunk of society and then wondering why more people are turning to extreme parties.

 

[PermaBanned]

No, i'm saying that everybody is equal and because they got the job over you that should tell you something.

 

[RDM]

No, i'm saying that everybody is equal and because they got the job over you that should tell you something.

Yes, they are prepared to do the job for less. Hence immigration having downward pressure on wages for low paid manual work. Great if you buy the products that the company produces, not so great if you are looking for work. Which is why rolling out the economic benefits of immigration is pointless if you want to combat the rise of parties like the BNP.

By ignoring the negative impacts you leave it wide open for parties to exploit them. Not really sure why this is so hard to grasp.

 

[PermaBanned]

And yet the fact that they're immigrants isn't actually the main point here.

 

[RDM]

And yet the fact that they're immigrants isn't actually the main point here.

What is the main point then?

 

[PermaBanned]

That if there aren't people willing to do the job for less then you can't really complain that somebody else is.

 

[RDM]

I'm not an economist and so I cannot fully grasp and understand all of the influencing factors. However you seem to be working from the very basic point of view, that if something is not directly beneficial to one group of people, it is to be ignored?

No, I am working from the point of view that the main targets of parties like the BNP do not see any of the benefits of immigration because for them, immigration is a net negative. If you ignore this and harp on about it being an economic benefit then you play in to the hands of the BNP.

I could just as easily ask of you, what advantages does the low paid manual worker bring to me?

• He doesn't contribute as much in the form of taxes as higher earners.
• Being in a lower socio-economic bracket, will mean he is more likely (statistically) to smoke, consume more alcohol than the average person and have a poorer diet.
• This combined with increased likelyhood of health problems in later life due to manual labour will mean he will be more of a financial burden on the NHS

He does however do a lot of those jobs that are still needed for society to function. But it is OK as long as we can get cheap labour in to do them instead. Just don't be too suprised when they start voting for parties that recognise their problems.

 

[RDM]

Is it your opinion that immigration is a net negative for these people or are you saying it is the BNP's?

It is both my opinion and the BNPs. (Though the BNP have the "don't like the darkies" thing going on too).

I am not playing into the hands of the BNP, I have a balanced opinion, there are positives and negatives to migration.

But you are looking at the wider picture rather than at the demographic that the BNP target. Immigration isn't a big issue the further up the socio-economic chain, primarily because the further up you go the more you gain from immigration in terms of reduced labour, skilled labour etc. You are also more likely to live in communities that suffer the stresses of immigration less.

I realise that legitimate immigrants that come over here to work, contribute a range of social and economic benefits. Importing skilled workers without our system having spent a penny on their training is something Britain has been doing for decades, with great success.

Probably balances out against the number of skilled people that leave the UK taking their training with them. The vast majority of immigration hasn't been skilled workers.

I also realise the pressures migration can bring on our system, and in particular illegal immigrants and non-skilled workers. Or for instance where money earned in this country is then sent back 'home', rather than being invested in our economy.

It is very difficult to balance, and rather than attempt to balance it the BNP have decided to take the easy way out and make demonize the issue. You can't however reap the benefits without having to deal with the negative consequences.

But that is the problem, if you are not reaping any of the benefits but are having to deal with most of the negatives and you have people telling you that immigration is a positive not a negative it doesn't really help. Then along come the BNP and tell you what you want to hear. Ignoring the problems aren't going to make them go away.

If the BNP want to target people that are unable or unwilling to understand all the factors in play, then fine. At the end of the day its propaganda to win votes, and I said originally, the BNP are benefiting from a lack of education on such matters.

However they are also benefiting from the fact that the positives from immigration are not evenly spread and neither are the negatives. It doesn't matter how much you educate someone if they do not actually see the benefits but have to deal with the negatives why on earth should they support it? Ignoring the problems and just blaming it on ignorance is not really the way to deal with it.

However I'm not sure what evidence you could produce to prove that immigration is a 'net-negative' for people in the lower socio-economic bracket, and I don't believe that's the case. But like I said I'm not an economist so what do I know .

So what positives can you see for immigration at the scale we have had it in the last 20 years for someone in the lower socio-economic bracket that balances out the negative pressures on wages, the increased pressures on services and the problems inherent with an education system where large parts of the class do not speak english?

 

[SlugForAButt]

Daily Mail...



Care to cite a source?

I cited sources, and you seem to have disappeared. Weird huh?

 

[SlugForAButt]

And who sais that these Polish workers aren't trying to raise money to bring up a family.

Just because it's happening in our country suddenly makes cheap labour a 'bad thing'? Please, we've been exploiting countries like China and many African countries for centuries. I didn't see you taking up such a right wing view then, not that it would have done any good. Essentially, you only care about yourself? Since we seem to be putting words into each other's mouths here...

Superewza, you obviously don't have the type of friends that I do. I have Polish friends who are ready to move to another European country at the drop of a hat, it's all about money. You obviously don't realise the problems that the young people vacuum has caused in Poland, they are now having to hire people from outside the EU to do THEIR crappy jobs. They are economic migrants and they are happy to abandon us when the pound is weak.
And ffs, why do you need to bring up centuries old imperialism? Everyone was at it, we were just better than the rest. Why do you think we owe them something now? Remember the Monty Python sketch about what have the Romans ever done for us?