Graphics card supporting PAP over HDMI

[Dreadhead]

Hello There.

I am looking to buy a graphics card to improve on the integrated 780g chip in my HTPC, I would like the machine to game on a mainstream level.

I also plan to buy a new amplifier soon to support the new Bluray audio streams, however this would require use of an expensive Xonar AV 1.3 to pass through the protected audio.

Does anyone know of any current graphics cards which have a protected audio pathway over HDMI, or whether any are going to be released in the near future.

The new ATI cards are out soon, and I was wondering if anyone knows if this feature would be supported.

Thanks.

 

[Venares]

None, and none planned that I've heard of.
Tbh with the price of BD players now, just buy a standalone player.
Sony S-350 will set you back about £100 and be significantly less hassle.

 

[wolvers]

While it's expensive, I've found the HDAV a great buy as an all round sound card. Not only does it pass through the HD audio tracks to my amp but also passes superb sounding PCM sound from games (some of which sound exceptional) and all over a single HDMI cable. If you've got a decent AV amp and 5.1 speakers you won't be dissapointed. There's a slimmer, cheaper version available now too.

 

[ac1d1ty]

What vaneres said. Can't belive how much cheaper they are now.

 

[james.miller]

also passes superb sounding PCM sound from games (some of which sound exceptional) and all over a single HDMI cable. If you've got a decent AV amp and 5.1 speakers you won't be dissapointed. There's a slimmer, cheaper version available now too.

so does any recent ati graphics card. no need to spend ~£150 on a sound card.

 

[wolvers]

so does any recent ati graphics card. no need to spend ~£150 on a sound card.

Well the ati cards don't currently bitstream so it's not a direct comparison. You know that so I don't know why you've made that comment, especially as the OP said he wants to bitstream.

Also, the slim card is around £110. What's the point in buying a standalone player just to get bitstreaming when the OP already has an HTPC which I assume has a blu-ray drive in already. The cheapest standalone players, around £100 for a BDP-1400, aren't very good so it's a no brainer to me to just upgrade an existing HTPC.

 

[james.miller]

Well the ati cards don't currently bitstream so it's not a direct comparison. You know that so I don't know why you've made that comment, especially as the OP said he wants to bitstream.

because you stated PCM output as bonus of the HDAV when in reality even a £30 ATi card can do it. I know OP wants bit-streaming, but he is entitled to know the facts remember the OP wanted a GPU that supported PAP - even if it didnt, it would still support PCM audio without the need for a soundcard at all.

Also, the slim card is around £110. What's the point in buying a standalone player just to get bitstreaming when the OP already has an HTPC which I assume has a blu-ray drive in already. The cheapest standalone players, around £100 for a BDP-1400, aren't very good so it's a no brainer to me to just upgrade an existing HTPC.

well, at the end of the day there is still nothing as easy or fuss free to use as a stand alone player. My HTPC has been capable of bluray playback for a long time now, ever since the first pio BD readers where released, but its still clunky compared to my ps3. Now with the price of stand alone players, i can not justify the cost of a bluray reader and then a £150 soundcard just to get bit-stream audio when a standalone will do it all for a shade over £100, all while in a slim, silent and low power package. even if he already had the ready, as i do, i still would buy a stand alone.

HTPC's will have to come a very long way to compete with standalones.

 

[wolvers]

because you stated PCM output as bonus of the HDAV when in reality even a £30 ATi card can do it. I know OP wants bit-streaming, but he is entitled to know the facts remember the OP wanted a GPU that supported PAP - even if it didnt, it would still support PCM audio without the need for a soundcard at all.

It's still pointless comparing them as the ATI card can't bitstream. So to answer the OP's question - no, GPU's don't bitstream. If/when they do then that'll be a good option. I can't see it happening or if it does then it'll push the price of the cards up because of the licensing.

What's the deal with ATI cards and gaming sound anyway? I mean, do they do EAX or some kind of Asus D3D type thing?

well, at the end of the day there is still nothing as easy or fuss free to use as a stand alone player. My HTPC has been capable of bluray playback for a long time now, ever since the first pio BD readers where released, but its still clunky compared to my ps3. Now with the price of stand alone players, i can not justify the cost of a bluray reader and then a £150 soundcard just to get bit-stream audio when a standalone will do it all for a shade over £100, all while in a slim, silent and low power package. even if he already had the ready, as i do, i still would buy a stand alone.

HTPC's will have to come a very long way to compete with standalones.

I guess that's a matter of opinion but I totally disagree. There's obviously a bit of fuss in setting them up but once they are done they're sooooo much more functional than a standalone. TV/PVR (including HD channels), music, photos, film libraries, games, DVD's, Blu-rays, HD-DVDs, and online TV all from the comfort of your sofa.

It's very possible to make them easy to use. If Mrs Wolvers can use ours then anyone can!! It's a shame you say yours is clunky to use James as it doesn't need to be.

 

[james.miller]

It's still pointless comparing them as the ATI card can't bitstream.

pointless mentioning it then, surely

whats the deal with ATI cards and gaming sound anyway? I mean, do they do EAX or some kind of Asus D3D type thing?

minimal EAX support. in real world terms, about as good as the asus range. the question should you be making a choise would be: is it worth an addition £50-odd quid for EAX support (azeuntech or creative) or an addition £150 for bitstreaming in the case of bluray audio. £150 for bitstreaming? hell no i cant justify that on my av setup, i dont know about over people but in general FAR too much emphasis is put on HD audio rather than the system its being played on. for instance, people recommending expensive sound cards without knowing what gear the op is using.

I guess that's a matter of opinion but I totally disagree. There's obviously a bit of fuss in setting them up but once they are done they're sooooo much more functional than a standalone. TV/PVR (including HD channels), music, photos, film libraries, games, DVD's, Blu-rays, HD-DVDs, and online TV all from the comfort of your sofa.

It's very possible to make them easy to use. If Mrs Wolvers can use ours then anyone can!! It's a shame you say yours is clunky to use James as it doesn't need to be.

well, you show me a htpc setup thats as quick and easy to use as a stand alone or my ps3, and ill sign on the dotted line. the gauntlet's down - you're ball

for background info, ive got a ps3, a htpc with a pio drive and a vaio with a bd writer. I'm well versed in software capable of playing bluray, and even payed for a few, and i'll still use the ps3 over everything else whenever i can. In actual fact, my viao is the closest thing i've seen to trouble-free and *reasonably* quick BD playback ive seen - windvd BD is actually very good. but even so its still slow, frustratingly at times, and you cant really beat putting the disc in the ps3 and having it switch on and play. yeah yeah i know my ps3 doesnt do bitsteam audio. i dont mind that fact - LPCM to my onkyo 805 and suitable speakers is still very very impressive.

 

[wolvers]

pointless mentioning it then, surely

Eh?! You compared them James, I said why I thought the HDAV was a good buy!!

for instance, people recommending expensive sound cards without knowing what gear the op is using.

I couldn't agree more, that's why I said 'If you've got a decent AV amp and 5.1 speakers you won't be dissapointed'.

well, you show me a htpc setup thats as quick and easy to use as a stand alone or my ps3, and ill sign on the dotted line. the gauntlet's down - you're ball

Well then show me a standalone that can do all the things my HTPC can! (far too much wanger waving now! )

He he, come round James and you can pick holes in my set up over a beer.

Seriously though, I can't emphasise much how much of a seal of approval it is when SWMBO can use it.

 

[AbsenceJam]

so does any recent ati graphics card. no need to spend ~£150 on a sound card.

ATi cards can do 7.1 PCM but a max of 48Khz/16bit from BD/HD-DVD. The Xonar can do full resolution bitstream or PCM.

 

[james.miller]

ATi cards can do 7.1 PCM but a max of 48Khz/16bit from BD/HD-DVD. The Xonar can do full resolution bitstream or PCM.

if PAP is required - ie: powerdvd ect. ffdshow will do 96/24 from a bluray, but currently it doesnt decode dts:ma. They are, apparently, close to a complete solution according to the devs. the difference between the original audio and the downsampled output also depends heavily on the quality of the downsampling. if it's half decent, there shouldnt be any difference other than the noise floor; the difference being a theoretical maximum of -117db for 16bit and -144db for 24bit.

....-144db is incredibly loud, louder than 95% of the audio systems out there - or the difference between absolute silence and standing next to an air raid siren going off. that, or standing next to a carrier jet at take off. even 117db (theoretical max dont forget) is 12db above reference level and there are few systems out there that can manage that cleanly.

Here's a question; do we have an analysis or any user accounts of the audio quality of the downsampled lcpm? is it poorly implimented and are there audiable artifacts?

HD audio is the holy grail of audio, but it seems to me it isnt very well researched.

 

[AbsenceJam]

if PAP is required - ie: powerdvd ect. ffdshow will do 96/24 from a bluray, but currently it doesnt decode dts:ma. They are, apparently, close to a complete solution according to the devs.

Yes, you can't use it with any proper players which is what almost everyone wants. It doesn't do it "from a bluray" it's just capable of decoding the codec.

 

[james.miller]

Yes, you can't use it with any proper players which is what almost everyone wants. It doesn't do it "from a bluray" it's just capable of decoding the codec.

ok...mpc-hc will play the bluray without menus, ffdshow will decode the audio and with the help of reclock and the wasapi audio layer in vista/w7 it'll be bit-perfect, as long as anydvdHD is installed.. to be exact. the other option i believe involves demuxing ripped bluray files.

any thoughts on the rest of my post? tomorrow, im goign to start playing with mpc-hc and reclock to see just what i can do with it, and whether it actually makes any difference to the audio quality or not.

 

[Dreadhead]

Thanks for all the info people. I appreciate the tips regarding the output of PCM audio.

Concerning my set-up; I have already added BluRay to my HTPC, and would like to have just one unit that can play everything I chuck at it, so therefore I would rather avoid a stand-alone player even if they are currently better.

I am able to wait a bit till I upgrade the audio device as I am still saving up for new speakers and amplifier. My current amp supports only Dolby Digital, and I am currently outputting over TOSLINK from the mobo.
When I can afford the new amplifier, I would like it to employ the most recent technology including the DTS:MA and TrueHD.

In a bit to keep the HTPC silent, I have opted for passive parts with only a couple of slow Noctuas cooling it. As noise, airflow and heat is an issue, I would like to keep as little hardware out of the case. Also I do not see the point in paying for an awesome soundcard if all it is going to do is pass along the encoded format. Therefore I would, if possible wait until a video card is released that can pass the audio through to the amp.

 

[wolvers]

Here's a question; do we have an analysis or any user accounts of the audio quality of the downsampled lcpm? is it poorly implimented and are there audiable artifacts?

That's another one of those cans of worms that audiophiles like to argue over, kind of like expensive speaker cables. Some can hear the difference and will claim that it's worth it, while others will disagree and give various reasons why.

Personally I find that my, somewhat modest, set up sounds crisper and clearer when my amp is decoding the track rather than the PC doing it. I think it will ultimately depend on the rest of the kit being used and the preference of the ear that's listening.

Are you sure that ffdshow will decode a track from disc and can mpc-hc be operated with a remote ? Like Absencejam I was under the impression that it would only do that from a ripped file and in a long winded process.

 

[AbsenceJam]

ok...mpc-hc will play the bluray without menus, ffdshow will decode the audio and with the help of reclock and the wasapi audio layer in vista/w7 it'll be bit-perfect, as long as anydvdHD is installed.. to be exact. the other option i believe involves demuxing ripped bluray files.

any thoughts on the rest of my post? tomorrow, im goign to start playing with mpc-hc and reclock to see just what i can do with it, and whether it actually makes any difference to the audio quality or not.

I remux myself, rip all my discs and then remux what I want to MKV with FLAC audio and ASS subtitles. Not exactly for everyone though.

24bit/and >48khz samplerates are more of a recording/production/editing thing really. Even though most of the time you dither down to 16/44.1 or 48 they give you a better final product than you'd get if you'd used that bitrate from the beginning - there's a lot of mathematics to this. Hearing wise if you have a good ear you can hear the difference from 16 to 24 but only a little of it due to the limitations of our hearing; also, even the best systems can't actually produce that full range of sound. Same goes for samplerates.
So you're not really losing out on much by downsampling film audio and considering the quality of most AV equipment you're less likely to experience a difference. I really think it's more of a gimmick and space filler than anything, nice to have, nice to see the logo light up but no advantage unless you have a high-end environment and kit. I spent some time chasing it but then realised it was near pointless particularly for films. Now if we're talking music I'm a lot more interested and rather long for a universal higher resolution format.