Absolutely FUMING (Arrogant GPs)

[hawker1986]

Some GPs are great, the ones I did my GP rotation with in Leicester were genuinely excellent, but my surgery at home in Bedford...well different story.

Going back to before I started med school so I didnt know any better myself, my Dad had a major road traffic accident and had multiple long (7-8 hours each) hip surgeries over the next 18 months.

Anyhow hed been out of hospital for 4 weeks after his last op and hed been feeling a bit off, tired etc and had swollen calves so we were worried and called out the GP (our usual GP was on holiday so another from the practise came out - amazing in itself). Basically he told us not to worry as it wasnt anything serious. Later in the week our usual GP is back and were still concerned so we call up and he says hell come out the next morning.

That evening my Dad falls really ill, is taken into hospital and consequently died of a pulmonary embolism. Next day our GP turns up in the morning and asks "hows he doing".

Great work there, the first guy should have realised my dad had DVTs in his legs a week before. 9 months later in a lecture on DVT at med school I litterally got up and had to walk out of a lecutre because I was so angry that the GP had missed this diagnosis. I would have done if it had happened after that lecture 6 months into med school, not after 25-30 years of experience, disgraceful.

Hawker

 

[Durzel]

Of course the UK would be a better place with less blacks knifing people, just as it would be a better place with less whites knifing people, and less asians knifing people. Any reduction in knifings would be better . Congrats, with that example, you pretty much confirmed everything I said in the last sentence of my previous post.

The point was that I was subliminally suggesting that its only blacks that knife people. Well done for not being able to read between the lines. As a statement it's not too dissimilar from "I wonder if this brown GP would treat brownies better?"

I'm pretty sure it's less a case of people needing to "open their eyes", and more a case of you needing a better grasp of reading comprehension. I don't see anything "sweeping" or "generalising" about anything I said. I pondered how my father's GP might have treated him differently if my father was of a different race, please explain exactly why you deem that to be so "racist"?

Seriously I want to know. Please break it right down, if just for the sake of everyone else's entertainment.


P.S. Oh yeah and with regard to your "straw man" remark, one of the definitions of a straw man argument is:

Oh the audacity

I haven't quoted anything you've said out of context or presumed anything about you based on anything other than what you've said in this thread. You on the other hand chose to throw up a strawman suggesting that I'm the "sort of person who tries to get baa baa black sheep banned", thus "inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized" (hello Wikipedia!)

You suggested in your first post, and continue to hypothesise, about how different your fathers treatment would've been if he had been Indian. You honestly don't see how that's racist? In one statement you managed to suggest that the GPs professionalism was based on race, that your father would've got better treatment if he'd been a "familiar". Your words, not mine.

As I said before the worst kind of racist are the people who earnestly believe they're not racist when they say stuff like that. You can't make a sweeping generalisation about a person based on race without it being racist - it's the very definition of the word, doesn't matter if you're talking about someone who's black, white or whatever.

Sticking "I do wonder" in front of a statement doesn't make it a valid thing to say, it's about as logical as me saying - Don't take this the wrong way but you're a ****

e: Incidentally suggesting that "my experience of Indian call centres has been bad" is quite different than saying something along the lines of "I do wonder whether Indians are capable of doing tech support".

 

[Heofz]

The point was that I was subliminally suggesting that its only blacks that knife people. Well done for not being able to read between the lines. As a statement it's not too dissimilar from "I wonder if this brown GP would treat brownies better?"

"brown" and "brownies"? So now you're resorting to putting racial slurs in my mouth? Getting desperate are we? I'm being 100% genuinely honest in saying that the word "brown" didn't even occur in my mind at any point during the making of this thread. I guess that makes you wonder who the real closet racist here is

You on the other hand chose to throw up a strawman suggesting that I'm the "sort of person who tries to get baa baa black sheep banned", thus "inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized" (hello Wikipedia!)

Yeah great, except for one tiny little detail... I didn't say that did I? This is what I actually said:

People like you are the reason why they banned the "baa baa black sheep" nursery rhyme at preschool.

Where did I say you try to get anything banned? What a gross mis-quote and atrocious misinterpretation, very different to the point I actually made. My point was you seem to be the kind of whiny so & so who thinks every pathetic little thing is "racist", causing everyone else to tip toe around you watching everything they say just incase you get all offended on other people's behalfs and ring the emergency racist alarm.

Hmm... isn't it odd how when I say one thing, you always seem to read something quite different? Am I the only one starting to see a pattern emerging here?

You suggested in your first post, and continue to hypothesise, about how different your fathers treatment would've been if he had been Indian. You honestly don't see how that's racist?

Nope. If the doctor was Chinese and that visiting family I witnessed was Chinese, I would have hypothesised how different my father's treatment would've been if he had been Chinese.

In one statement you managed to suggest that the GPs professionalism was based on race, that your father would've got better treatment if he'd been a "familiar". Your words, not mine.

And your point is?

This is your logic:
"Heofz thinks Doctor (who happens to be Indian) prefers treating his own race"
"Heofz is a different race to Doctor"
"Therefore, Heofz is racist"

That's pretty much your entire argument, isn't it?

e: Incidentally suggesting that "my experience of Indian call centres has been bad" is quite different than saying something along the lines of "I do wonder whether Indians are capable of doing tech support".

Yes I agree. Those statements are indeed very different from each other. I dont recall saying anything like "I do wonder whether Indians make good doctors". So what you're trying to get at I have no idea.

*sigh* I think we're going round in circles now

Can we just move on? I'm happy with letting you carry on living in your little incomprehensible bubble thinking I'm a racist bigot from reading way too much into everything, whilst the rest of us in the real world (including my indian friends who have posted here explicitly stating that they are not offended) carry on with our lives rather than dwelling on some random twisted racial misinterpretation.

Incidentally, I love how you've chosen to completely ignore the "I'm not offended" comments from the people who are actually "supposed to be offended" by this "racism". This really is looking tragic

 

[Durzel]

Nothing you say holds any water at all.

"People like you" implies I'm one of those people who tried/got "baa baa black sheep banned". Your statement is a strawman because you're saying that because I think what you said is racist therefore I'm "the sort of person/people like you who try and get baa baa black sheep banned". You've got absolutely zero evidence for this, but you state it as fact.

I find people suggesting, stating, supposing about someones professional conduct based on their race as racist - sorry if that is hard to grasp. Saying that "I wonder if this <person of colour> would've treated X differently if he was <colour>" is a racist statement whichever way you want to slice it. You're not "supposing" that, to even suggest it implies that's what you think is the case, it's your opinion.

Incidentally just because a token group of people on a forum don't find something offensive doesn't necessarily mean it's not an offensive statement. Further proof of totally illogical reasoning.

It's pointless arguing with you when you can't even appreciate that saying "People like you" is the same as saying "you're one of these people" when making a strawman argument, or when saying "I'm sure he would have been treated as if he was "in the club" so to speak" in the context of race is racist.

The bottom line is you decided to make race a factor in your story, you suggested race was a factor in the quality/professionalism/conduct your gfather received. If you can't appreciate that making that kind of generalisation about a "race of GPs" based on one experience is a racist statement then there's no hope for engaging you in any kind of logical debate.

 

[drunkenmaster]

people who think lots of people don't go into medicine for money, are deluded. Gp's might not make the best money in the world, but not every doctor is a GP, the best surgeons, plastic surgery, research, honestly research is where the money is.

My friends dad is one of the top gastrointestinal guys in the country, he'll get a call to look over, not do, just look over other peoples research to see if he can spot anything that jumps out at a top guy as being strange, wrong or unlikely so they can go back over and recheck things. he was getting, 5-50k for simply reading through research studies, was getting more for actually doing them, was getting paid for private practice and was still doing loads of nhs work, he did very little private stuff and was offered what would have been millions over a few years work at private clinics.#

Whats funny is he DIDN'T get into it for the money, hence why he still mostly works cheap on the NHS and does research in his spare time for a little extra and doesn't do nearly all he could do. But MANY people get into it thinking they'll be a world reknown surgeon making 100k's a year, thinking they'll make huge money in research, only to find out they are crappy doctors and end up stuck as GP's.

Very few people go to med school with the intention of being GP's, who goes thinking specifically they want to treat coughs and colds all year long, seeing old grannies constantly and doing very little actually medical work. People go to med school, they want to be surgeon's, ER doc's, fixing people. Seems to me its mostly the wash outs and the worst docs that end up as GP's.

 

[Tefal]

You suggested in your first post, and continue to hypothesise, about how different your fathers treatment would've been if he had been Indian. You honestly don't see how that's racist? .

The only Indian person to post in this thread doesn't even think it's racist...hell he even agreed with Heofz.

 

[jaybee]

On a similar story, I nearly died when I was 4 weeks old due to poor diagnosis from a doc. Said I just had a stomach bug when I had...something I can't spell But I needed an op basically as food and drink wasn't staying down at all. My parents were livid as you can expect. It does happen. Get a second opinion would be my advice.
I guess in this "worry culture" we have now where there is something wrong with everyone, GPs probably get a bit sick of "time wasters" so to speak. Obviously in this case they poorly calculated this.
Hope your Dad is ok.

 

[Durzel]

The only Indian person to post in this thread doesn't even think it's racist...hell he even agreed with Heofz.

So one guy doesn't think it's racist so it's not? You don't have to be of colour to consider something as racist do you?

I think it was a racially motivated statement, is that ok? The story was interesting enough without allusions to race being a factor in the quality of his fathers treatment.

 

[likwid]

'In the club'? 'A familiar'? 'Mr Whitey'? Seriously, who speaks like that?

I don't believe for one second that Indian GP's are often giving preferential treatment to Indian patients. Nor do I lend any credence to those offering experiences of witnessed occurrences.

You met 4 GP's who happened to be Indian and who offered a poor service. Separate their race from their job in your head, it's not relevant. You feel the service offered to your father was poor. What have you done about it, other than ranting on the internet.

You recount your memories of watching families of 6 Indian people on 'a few' occasions. Was this same family of 6 you observed on different occasions, or in your mind are all Indian families numbered six members? You are so horrified that they had push chairs, were talking in their language, laughing and taking a longer length of time than you thought appropriate.

It seems rather choicely to follow your recollection of these separate experiences by conveying your feelings of feeling physically sick and full of rage. Of course, you were talking about your feelings at your fathers treatment, but it's open to interpretation which I believe is your intention. In my opinion this whole thread smacks as a phony vehicle to offer musings from your prejudiced mind.

 

[meghatronic]

You met 4 GP's who happened to be Indian and who offered a poor service. Separate their race from their job in your head, it's not relevant.

With respect, it can be relevant. Linguistically and culturally.

 

[Heofz]

blah blah blah whine whine whine

The only person who seems to still be crying about all this nonsense is you.

Get over yourself. There's far worse things in life than "subliminal racial thoughts" or whatever you want to call them.

I know I'm not racist, everyone I know IRL knows I'm not racist. People who you think should be offended by my comments are not offended. You really are just sitting there whining for the sake of whining at this stage, I guess too stubborn to lose an internet argument so trying every possible trick to win.

Your logic is horribly flawed and you really don't have a clue what being racist really means in the real world.

...ugh...

If you want to take this further please send me an email (found in sig), I don't think it's fair this thread gets filled up with any more of this utter nonsense. Nobody is buying it, least of all me. If anyone is interested in what ensues let me know and I'll be happy to publish the rest of this "debate" on a webpage elsewhere.

 

[heeeed]

Very few people go to med school with the intention of being GP's, who goes thinking specifically they want to treat coughs and colds all year long, seeing old grannies constantly and doing very little actually medical work. People go to med school, they want to be surgeon's, ER doc's, fixing people. Seems to me its mostly the wash outs and the worst docs that end up as GP's.

That's such a heap of **** it isn't true. The problem is an awful lot of people including you drunkenmaster have no idea what GP's do an awful lot of in our day to day. we don't just see coughs and colds, and we do an awful lot of medicine and will probably have a broader understanding of medicine than most specialists do. Yes you can argue we are jack of all trades master of none, but that doesn't mean we are hopeless and can't hack it in hospital. I worked for many years in hospital doing quite well thank you very much, before I decided to change my career to GP. The more you go up the food chain of hospital medicine the more you realised how focussed on one area you become and don't get to see the range of conditions I will see. You don't get the continuity of care that a GP gets to provide. Sure it ain't the sexy brain surgery part of medicine and thats why 18 yr olds don't start expecting to become GP's, but my profession is not just about washouts. In fact it is becoming a very much harder specialty to get into than many hospital areas, and yes it is a defined specialty and we have many skills that a hospital doctor won't have and takes several years post graduate training to become a GP. I really find your comments very offensive and shows clearly you have little to no understanding of the profession as a whole.

 

[Durzel]

stuff

Tough s***, I'll debate it where I like.

You haven't refuted a single point I've made, and in practically every rebuttal you've sought to throw up strawmen or just try and undermine my point, finally - and in the absence of any clear defence - resorting to calling it "whining". It can't be right if its whining!

First you hypothesise that your Dad would've been treated differently if "he was in the club" or a "familiar" (your words), then you go on to say - verbatim - "Nobody here is claiming ALL indian gp's are racist. Not in the slightest.". A contradiction in terms.

Then you say - again verbatim - "People like you are the reason why they banned the "baa baa black sheep" nursery rhyme at preschool", and then laughably respond with an ever bigger strawman to justify it:

My point was you seem to be the kind of whiny so & so who thinks every pathetic little thing is "racist", causing everyone else to tip toe around you watching everything they say just incase you get all offended on other people's behalfs and ring the emergency racist alarm.

(lol)

Everything you say is a contradiction and you haven't refuted a single point I've made, yet you keep banging on about "logic" and misrepresentation. Again I haven't taken anything you've said out of context, you brought race into the debate in your OP, you presupposed that your father would get different treatment if he was "in the club". Again you have not managed to justify any of this, instead weakly trying to downplay things in every reply with personal slights and strawmen. Now you're intimating that "there are far worse things in life", the catch-all for all arguments that aren't going someones way.

The bottom line is - the fact you brought race up to begin with is as clear an indicator as any that you have racist views. I'm not saying you're a BNP member (before you use that as a strawman), but the very fact you specifically mentioned race as being a factor makes you, and what you said, racist - in this instance.

I'm sorry if you feel wronged being called to task over speculating that an Indian GP was professionally negligent and would treat "his own kind" differently, but them's the breaks.

(Also the irony of you fallaciously bringing up me misrepresenting you when in every reply you've distilled my posts into a single-line negative comment is quite amusing, first "more utter high horse B.S.", then "blah blah blah whine whine whine". What will be next I wonder!)

 

[chrisd]

That's such a heap of **** it isn't true. The problem is an awful lot of people including you drunkenmaster have no idea what GP's do an awful lot of in our day to day. we don't just see coughs and colds, and we do an awful lot of medicine and will probably have a broader understanding of medicine than most specialists do. Yes you can argue we are jack of all trades master of none, but that doesn't mean we are hopeless and can't hack it in hospital. I worked for many years in hospital doing quite well thank you very much, before I decided to change my career to GP. The more you go up the food chain of hospital medicine the more you realised how focussed on one area you become and don't get to see the range of conditions I will see. You don't get the continuity of care that a GP gets to provide. Sure it ain't the sexy brain surgery part of medicine and thats why 18 yr olds don't start expecting to become GP's, but my profession is not just about washouts. In fact it is becoming a very much harder specialty to get into than many hospital areas, and yes it is a defined specialty and we have many skills that a hospital doctor won't have and takes several years post graduate training to become a GP. I really find your comments very offensive and shows clearly you have little to no understanding of the profession as a whole.

+1

 

[Durzel]

Wouldn't it be fair to say that it is harder to be a GP than some specialities because whilst you're not involved in operations you have to have (and maintain) a broader knowledgebase in order to deal with everything that comes in?

I've always had nothing but absolute respect for GPs, when you consider someone could come in with any ailment at any time and expect to get an authoritative (and assumed always 100% correct!) diagnosis, I can quite easily imagine it being harder than certain specialties.

 

[leaskovski]

Wow this thread has tuned into a whole can of worms!

Blooming honkies complaining!

 

[Durzel]

Im not racist, some of my best friends are <insert racial slur>!

 

[Wizardskills]

*Grabs more popcorn*

 

[leaskovski]

Im not racist, some of my best friends are <insert racial slur>!

There is being racist and then there is being racist.

I am a racist, i will admit that, but Im not one of those nutters that want them all out of our country.

 

[Durzel]

Which is why my original point about people who won't admit they're racist yet saying things that any rational person would consider racist as being "the worst kind". Well, not literally the worst kind when you consider the likes of Stormfront members.

At least you admit it which is all I was trying to get the OP to do. I've had enough bad experiences with Indian call centres - for example - to "assume the worst" when I end up getting through to another one. That's more a factor of how much training they're given, how much they're paid, etc rather than saying "hai guys Indians are incompetent on the phone amirite?".

*Grabs more popcorn*

I'm calling it... it's going to be some mutation of "There's people starving in Africa and you're whining about a guy speaking his mind and unintentionally revealing racist tendencies, get some perspective!" with maybe another strawman thrown in for good measure. My entire previous post will get condensed down into a single rolleyes smiley.

With any luck it'll be the trifecta and I'll get called sad for mentioning that I'd played The Sims somewhere completely unrelated to this thread and maybe even this forum.