Krav Maga

[meghatronic]

krav maga takes bits from a lot of other techniques so there are many similarities (sp) to some other sytles

Yeah, but I find it funny how it is similar to Aikido - yet Aikido is oh so ****. Apparently.

But yes, you're right, the whole point of self defense - is just that, defense. Krav Maga lends itself perfectly to this end.

 

[theleg]

i kind of agree. but an attack to the windpipe would be part of your combo, followed by a take down. after which time you would run (instead of continuing to attack your opponent)

that video is very much kravmaga

and if i was being attacked my a knife, i woudlnt be thinking about what would be justified or not in a court room, i would be thinking about saving my life and deal with any legality afterwards

better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6

if your life was in danger then there wouldnt really be an issue....the issue arises when you do something serious to someone when your life isnt really in danger..because krav maga teaches you to use no restraint..to commit fully to putting your opponent down in the shortest time possible.

 

[Paul11]

if your life was in danger then there wouldnt really be an issue....the issue arises when you do something serious to someone when your life isnt really in danger..because krav maga teaches you to use no restraint..to commit fully to putting your opponent down in the shortest time possible.

well, then id say self control is the issue and most people who learn any self defense or matial art should know when to walk away

you dont become a robot that acts without any thoughts, just because you have learnt some self defense irrelavant of how instinctive you make your training.

 

[Kappa]

Awesome stuff, looking into it now. Was looking to take up TKD but this sounds far more interesting.

Theres also a class held right near me in Upminster. £8 a sesh though! :0

 

[theleg]

well, then id say self control is the issue and most people who learn any self defense or matial art should know when to walk away

you dont become a robot that acts without any thoughts, just because you have learnt some self defense irrelavant of how instinctive you make your training.

thats the thing though, krav maga is specifically designed around removing a sense of restraint..its about making the person react immediately and instinctively. thats why its different to other fighting styles imo.

 

[Dolph]

well, then id say self control is the issue and most people who learn any self defense or matial art should know when to walk away.

Again, this is not what Krav Maga teaches (at least when taught as the founder intended. If you want to learn a martial art that teaches restraint, look elsewhere, or accept that you're doing Haganah not Krav Maga)

you dont become a robot that acts without any thoughts, just because you have learnt some self defense irrelavant of how instinctive you make your training.

You are missing the point. Different martial arts have different attitudes to use of force and therefore different mental and instinctual training. If you aren't learning that, you aren't really learning Krav, but a variation on it.

As for the 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6', I agree, but being judged by 12 and aquitted is much better than being judged by 12 and found guilty

 

[Paul11]

Again, this is not what Krav Maga teaches (at least when taught as the founder intended. If you want to learn a martial art that teaches restraint, look elsewhere, or accept that you're doing Haganah not Krav Maga)

You are missing the point. Different martial arts have different attitudes to use of force and therefore different mental and instinctual training. If you aren't learning that, you aren't really learning Krav, but a variation on it.

As for the 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6', I agree, but being judged by 12 and aquitted is much better than being judged by 12 and found guilty

you are correct in that if you are in a life threatening situation (as in the army and hand to hand combat, where you kill the enemy or he kills you) then i totally agree (as the founder intended)

the attitude that you mention is right but the choice of reaction is still down to the individual in any situation

you speak as if when you learn km you lose all ability to restrain yourself or use any judgement

its slightly hypothetical though because in theory i agree with you and what km stands for but in practice you would still know if you were in a life threatening situation or not and react accordingly

 

[Dolph]

you are correct in that if you are in a life threatening situation (as in the army and hand to hand combat, where you kill the enemy or he kills you) then i totally agree

the attitude that you mention is right but the choice of reaction is still down to the individual in any situation

In a flight or fight scenario, rational reaction and thought goes rapidly out of the window, and you will fall back on training instinctively if you have it. The choice remains with the individual, but that doesn't mean they will make a rational or correct decision, especially if their training leads them towards instinctive use of disproportionate force.

I found a great article on the issue.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/jailfordefending.htm

 

[Paul11]

In a flight or fight scenario, rational reaction and thought goes rapidly out of the window,

so, you should run or you should fight ? (fight or flight)

if you have to stay and fight then you do what you have to do, otherwise i would say you should have run.

"im sorry officer i just did what i believed i had to do as i felt my life was in danger"

if you have to react with force you should just make sure the situation warrants it otherwise it was bad judgement on your part.


ps. i havent read that article yet, but i will shortly.

 

[Dolph]

so, you should run or you should fight ? (fight or flight)

if you have to stay and fight i would say it would be hard for the other person to prove that you used disporportional force, otherwise i would say you should have run.

"im sorry officer i just did what i believed i had to do as i felt my life was in danger"

I disagree. If I could have disarmed and restrained someone (thereby neutralising the threat) without significant injury, but instead crush their windpipe and damage one of their eyes to do the same thing, then I've used disproportionate force.

As the linked article says, it's not about your reality, but actuality that the Jury will decide upon.

 

[Paul11]

I disagree. If I could have disarmed and restrained someone (thereby neutralising the threat) without significant injury, but instead crush their windpipe and damage one of their eyes to do the same thing, then I've used disproportionate force.

As the linked article says, it's not about your reality, but actuality that the Jury will decide upon.

but that is my point, if you can disarm and restrain someone , you should

just because you train in KM does not mean you will instinctily over react

and if you kill someone by attacking their windpipe because they pushed you, then it was disproportionate force

the problem is that every situation is different but i maintain you still have evaluation of a situation and judgement and if you dont use them, then you will wind up in trouble, i agree

 

[meghatronic]

I disagree. If I could have disarmed and restrained someone (thereby neutralising the threat) without significant injury, but instead crush their windpipe and damage one of their eyes to do the same thing, then I've used disproportionate force.

As the linked article says, it's not about your reality, but actuality that the Jury will decide upon.

This is the clincher. You may be a good enough martial artist to protect yourself - but what about your attacker? The jury will be confused - as you clearly had enough ability to destroy someone - so why not restrain them? This will be seen as easier than destroying in the jury's eyes - so you used disproportionate force. All it takes is a good prosecution - and you're screwed.

"So, you've done martial arts for x years.... do you think you're any good?"
<answer irrelevant>
"Well, clearly you're good enough - you beat off your 'attacker'. Sorry, you beat <him>. Surely if you were good enough, you should've shown some restraint?" / "Oh? You're a good martial artist.. I see... then why didn't you show restraint to a less skilled <him>" Etc...

 

[etom]

i thought if someone pulled a knife out on you close range, crushing their wind pipe would be a reasonble response and more then likely wouldn't get convicted? as long as you could prove he pulled knife for no reason

 

[Dolph]

but that is my point, if you can disarm and restrain someone , you should

And my point is that Krav Maga teaches you otherwise, at least when taught as intended by it's creator.

just because you train in KM does not mean you will instinctily over react

If you don't react on instinct in the most 'effective' manner, you're either not very good at KM, or you're not being taught KM, but something based off it.

and if you kill someone by attacking their windpipe because they pushed you, then it was disproportionate force

the problem is that every situation is different but i maintain you still have evaluation of a situation and judgement and if you dont use them, then you will wind up in trouble, i agree

And again, the problem with KM from a practioner point of view, is that its teachings run counter to this. It is a very very effective combat art, I am not denying that for a second, but it is not a good form of legal self defence when taught by the book, because it teaches the opposite of restraint and control.

 

[meghatronic]

i thought if someone pulled a knife out on you close range, crushing their wind pipe would be a reasonble response and more then likely wouldn't get convicted? as long as you could prove he pulled knife for no reason

It is reasonably if you're a nobody - but if you're a martial artist it can be argued you could've done a less harmful techniques.

Watch the beginning to Con Air:

Cameron Poe, you have pleaded guilty to manslaughter in the first degree. With your military skills, you are a deadly weapon and are not subject to the same laws as other people that are provoked because you can respond with deadly force.

It is the order of this court that you be remanded to a federal penitentiary where you shall remain incarcerated for a term not less than 7 to 10 years.

 

[Paul11]

If you don't react on instinct in the most 'effective' manner, you're either not very good at KM, or you're not being taught KM, but something based off it.


.

i didnt say , react. i said. over-react

ofcourse you should react but that doesnt mean you will over react just because you are trained in KM.

if you cant control yourself and over react and have no judgement because of KM then you may deserve what a court decides to hand to you

 

[Richdog]

In a flight or fight scenario, rational reaction and thought goes rapidly out of the window, and you will fall back on training instinctively if you have it. The choice remains with the individual, but that doesn't mean they will make a rational or correct decision, especially if their training leads them towards instinctive use of disproportionate force.

I found a great article on the issue.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/jailfordefending.htm

Just out of interest what martial arts do you do or have done, Dolph?

 

[Phyre]

Erm.. No, they do teach restraint in Krav Maga. They teach you to use a certain amount of force to disable the opponent. But once that opponent is disabled you stop. Immediately. Once they're disabled it's not self-defence anymore.

 

[meghatronic]

Erm.. No, they do teach restraint in Krav Maga. They teach you to use a certain amount of force to disable the opponent. But once that opponent is disabled you stop. Immediately. Once they're disabled it's not self-defence anymore.

No they don't - not in the founders system. It was never really meant as a civilian thing. It was IDF hand-to-hand training.

 

[Dolph]

Just out of interest what martial arts do you do or have done, Dolph?

I did Aikido for just over 10 years, and have dabbled with a few others, including muay thai, TKD and JKD.

I looked seriously at taking up Krav, but unless you learn it properly (including the instinctual hard reactions) it is not that much more effective than anything else. Part of what makes Krav so effective as a combat art is the nature of the responses, and if you aren't learning those properly, you're not really learning Krav Maga, you're learning based on it, but nowhere near as effective.