Little Boy dropped 64 years ago, today.

But the Germans did not think the allies were going to eat them an be totally barbaric. German and Japan soldiers were very different.

The coast was very well defended and dug in. Much like the tunnel systems in Vietnam. Even with relative low resources in comparison to America It would have been a long drawn out fight,
 
That would have been such a great plane. Lucky the Germans didn't get a wing of either or both. It really would have turned the war. As far as I know we didn't have anything close to that. 600mph. We would have been slaughtered.

One thing you have to say about the Germans (possibly one of the reasons they lost the war) is that they really liked their technology. Much of it was far more advanced than the allies kit. For example King Tigers against "fisher price" shermans, the "V" bombs and their atomic research, which was needed before the Americans could complete their atomic bombs.

However their tech was arguably one of their downfalls. When their kit broke it was harder to fix an it took far longer to make than allied kit.
 
I thought the topic was going to be about some kid whos parents dropped him 64 years ago and he became deformed andnow look at him today!
 
I'm not sure about the reasoning it gave us many more years of peace. Yes there was a cold war between two nations; but they certainly fought a lot of proxy wars didn't they?

But no direct wars between major powers. Without the threat of Nuclear weapons do you think Russia would have just left it at Eastern Europe?
 
But the Germans did not think the allies were going to eat them an be totally barbaric. German and Japan soldiers were very different.

The coast was very well defended and dug in. Much like the tunnel systems in Vietnam. Even with relative low resources in comparison to America It would have been a long drawn out fight,

I agree, getting a foothold on the coast would have been a bit bloody, however the Allies had already refined their beach landings into a well oiled machine. From Sicily and Normandy in europe to the islands in the Pacific. The first few days would have been bloody (probably another D-Day) but after the coastal defences had been breached there would have been little resistance. That is if the Japanese had let it go that far before surrendering.
 
But no direct wars between major powers. Without the threat of Nuclear weapons do you think Russia would have just left it at Eastern Europe?

Didn't they? Might be wrong here didn't the Soviets arrive in Berlin first and stop?:confused:

I do understand the large element of distrust between us and the Russians though. I remember reading a while ago that the Americans wanted to go all the way to Moscow.

Also - (sort of side question here), but didn't a lot of Germans scientists defect into the USA and help them build weapons of mass destruction. Didn't any head into the USSR before Barberossa? Were the Soviets coming up with any of their own designs?
 
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Also - (sort of side question here), but didn't a lot of Germans scientists defect into the USA and help them build weapons of mass destruction. Didn't any head into the USSR before Barberossa? Were the Soviets coming up with any of their own designs?

I think most were captured rather than defecting. Both America and Russia got a fair few scientists. Although not sure in what disciplines. Wouldn't be surprised if Russia got a fair few rocket ones. As Russia where well ahead in rocket motors until the 90's when America managed to purchase some Russian rocket engines.
 
There is such a thing as total war and ww2 was one of them. What's was it 96% of are GPD going to the war effort and hardly any civilians. Everyone was part of the war effort. From growing food, working in the factories or transporting equipment.

Exactly, by definition WW2 was a total war. When almost every single penny and every single person is working 110% to fight the war then there is no such thing as a civilian. What difference does it make if someone is packing explosive into shells in a factory or is flying a suicide plane into a warship. Yes, morally we want to minimise children's deaths and red-cross hospitals etc. But the women who is armed with a screwdriver making a rifle is just as much a part of the war machine as the soldier who shoots it - when the country is under total war. Outside total war then things are different. There are civilians in Afghanistan, etc.


I think some people just do not understand the scale of war that was present in WW2, or the death-rate Japan was inflicting. at the peak, Japan was slaughtering nearly half a million chinese and SE asian's every single month. This excludes the allied casaulities. People also forget far more people ere toasted in the Tokyo and Dresden fire bombings.
 
I think most were captured rather than defecting. Both America and Russia got a fair few scientists. Although not sure in what disciplines. Wouldn't be surprised if Russia got a fair few rocket ones. As Russia where well ahead in rocket motors until the 90's when America managed to purchase some Russian rocket engines.

Sounds about right from what I understand. I think the Americans at least captured their scientists and then offered them pardons if they worked on the same projects for the US (including atom, rocket and chemical/biological). I assume the russians used more "coersion" with their scientists.
 
Millions? You do realise that Britain had less than 400,000 military deaths in the whole of the second world war, and America had around 410,000? As mentione countless times the Japanese were pretty close to surrender anyway, they were already in talks about it (which included during the first and second bomb, when there is some evidence that Truman refused a surrender). Official surrender dates are a bit skewed anyway, as they are always a few days after the original surrender date (due to official duty and organisation of surrender terms etc).

The "Millions" number was in my opinion a publicity attack to put a nuclear test in a better light. There is no way that death toll would have been able occur. Remember that Japan has no natural resources of it's own (which was one of the reasons it attacked America in the first place, America had instituted an oil embago on Japan) and had pretty much run out of resources to build anything at this time. The Germans were pretty mch as fanatical as the Japanese, yet the death toll was less than 100,000. 1,000,000 dead simply would have not happened. Even if there were heavy casualties the American and British navies could very easily have just sat back, surrounded the Japanese with ships and starved them out (just look how easy that almost was when the Germans tried that to us).


And again we need to remember that the Generals and leaders of Japan were very lose to surrender. They were not stupid, just like the Generals in Hitlers military...

The generals were NOT close to surrender, in fact they were strongly advocating the continuation of the war. Where are you getting this from ?

In keeping with the custom of a new government declaring its purposes, following the May meetings the Army staff produced a document, "The Fundamental Policy to Be Followed Henceforth in the Conduct of the War," which stated that the Japanese people would fight to extinction rather than surrender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_surrender

Even those in favour of peace wanted negotiate favourable terms including keep land they had taken in the war. Why on earth should they have been allowed to do that ? Are you insane ?

As for the million casualties....Okinawa was the first island to be taken that had Japanese civilians as many as 140,000 of them died, as many as 1/3 of the population

With the impending victory of American troops, civilians often committed mass suicide, urged on by the Japanese soldiers who told locals that victorious American soldiers would go on a rampage of killing and raping. Ryukyu Shimpo, one of the two major Okinawan newspapers, wrote in 2007: "There are many Okinawans who have testified that the Japanese Army directed them to commit suicide. There are also people who have testified that they were handed grenades by Japanese soldiers (to blow themselves up)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

As for the million casualties....

The Battle of Okinawa, the very last pitched battle against Japan, ran up 72,000 casualties in 82 days, of whom 18,900 were killed or missing. (This is conservative, because it excludes several thousand U.S. soldiers who died after the battle indirectly from their wounds.) The entire island of Okinawa is 464 square miles; to take it, therefore, cost the United States 407 soldiers (killed or missing) for every 10 square miles of island. If the U.S. casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had only been 5 percent as high per square mile as it was at Okinawa, the United States would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).

Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II — including the Korean and Vietnam Wars — have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock.[45] There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.[45]

This is US combat deaths, and excludes Japanese combat deaths. If we use Okinawa as a model, 100,000 of the 107,000 Japanese soldiers died. There were 545,000 Japanese troops on Kyūshū. We are approaching the million already, without counting civilian deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall
 
A grave day to commemorate one of history's worst war crimes. And yet, the popular myth that the bombs "saved lives" by "shortening the war" still persists, thanks to the history revisionists and their ignorant followers. But the opposite is true, as openly admitted by historians and even by the Allies at the time of the bombing.

The decision to hit Japan with atomic weapons had been made in 1943 - two years before the bombs were dropped - and in 1944, Roosevelt confided this information to Churchill. The bombing was a premeditated event, and the plans were made two years before the weapon was used. This alone destroys the claim that the use of Fat Man and Little Boy was a desperate act to avoid a humanitarian disaster. It was nothing of the kind. It had all been decided long before the invasion of Okinawa.

Of course, the Yanks actually didn't need to use the bombs at all, since they knew Japanese were in the process of trying to surrender. Even the Allies' threat of abolishing the Japanese monarchy (Japan's primary reason for delaying her surrender negotiations) was never carried out, and Japan still has an emperor to this day.

Truman had told his commanders that the bombs must not be used against civilian targets:


The weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children.

Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.

As we know, this was completely ignored.

Of course, Truman knew that Japan was trying to surrender, and freely admitted this to his advisers (there are have copies of correspondence which confirm this). The Allies were also aware that a Russian attack on Japan was imminent (which was precisely why Japan was trying to negotiate a surrender via Moscow) and if they wanted to win the war, they could do so simply by sitting on their hands for a month or two.

It is often claimed that the bombs were necessary because a land war would have resulted in too many casualties on both sides. This, too, is a lie. There was no need for a land war. The Japanese had no way to defend themselves, and the Allies had no need to invade. All they had to do was wait for Japan's surrender. Japan no longer had any capacity to strike outside her borders. America's top brass were completeMost of the American top brass were against the decision to use atomic power against the Japanese for this :

  • Henry Arnold (commanding general of the US Army Air Forces):

    "The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air."

    "It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."

    "When the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the Commander in Chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessity of a land invasion."

  • Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, Arnold's deputy:

    "Arnold's view was that it [the dropping of the atomic bomb] was unnecessary. He said that he knew the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it."

  • William D. Leahy, US Fleet Admiral at the time:

    "Once it had been tested, President Truman faced the decision as to whether to use it. He did not like the idea, but he was persuaded that it would shorten the war against Japan and save American lives. It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.

    The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons."

    "My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

  • General Dwight D. Eisenhower:

    "I voiced to him [the Secretary of War] my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with a minimum of loss of 'face'."

  • President Herbert Hoover:

    "I told [US General] MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."

Needless to say, all of this this was ignored too.

There's an excellent article on the bombings here. I'll leave you with this poignant excerpt:


The argument that the Bomb significantly shortened the Pacific conflict and made a bloody invasion of the Japanese mainland unnecessary was first rubbished almost immediately after the war, when the American government’s own Strategic Bombing Survey reported that Japan had been on the point of surrender anyway:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
 
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Surrender ?

In the process of trying to negotiate a settlement that allowed them to keep the spoils of their aggression.

Why should they have been allowed to do that ?

Kind of sucked to be a Korean in that case.
 
Even after the 2 nuclear bomb drops they were trying to negotiate a conditional surrender, only direct intervention by the Emperor at that stage made them accept the Allies terms.
 
Even after the 2 nuclear bomb drops they were trying to negotiate a conditional surrender, only direct intervention by the Emperor at that stage made them accept the Allies terms.

but lets forget the facts, they here trying to surrender all along.

I have to be honest, I don't see why people keep saying they where trying to surrender, with all the evidence available. Well surrender to reasonable terms anyway.

You also have to remember the Japanese where given chances to surrender to the terms after he first Bomb and were told in no uncertain words that more nukes would be dropped if they did not surrender and also the Americans urged all civilians to leave industrial towns.
 
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But then on the other side you have Japanese documents saying fight to the death, American plans for invasions and expected death rates. I really don't think it's as clear cut as you make out.

It's entirely clearcut. The Allies knew the Japanese were trying to surrender, and they even confirmed this repeatedly in communications to each other. There was never any confusion about it. The only sticking point was the retention of the Emperor, which the Allies actually permitted despite initially threatening to deny.

Yes, some Japanese generals did not want to surrender. But they were not the government; the government itself was in the process of surrendering. Contemporary records confirm that the Yanks and Brits even knew this. It is a well documented historical fact. There is no disputing it.

Look at the post above yours.

It's irrelevant. It talks about some of the generals' opinions and says little or nothing about the government. It entirely ignores the well documented evidence of the Japanese surrender attempts, and the Allies' knowledge of ongoing Japanese surrender negotiations. It then quickly diverts into a lengthy and pointless discussion of projected deaths as a result of a land invasion which the Allies - by their own admission - had no intention of pursuing since they knew -again, by their own admission - that it was completely unnecessary.

That post is just a load of hot air. It completely fails to address the historical evidence regarding:

* Japanese surrender negotiations and the fact that the Allies were aware of them

* the American decision to use atomic weapons - a decision made two years in advance, long before the land invasion was even discussed

* the admission by various members of the American government and military that the bombings were entirely unnecessary.

* the result of the American government's own investigation, which confirmed that the bombings were entirely unnecessary

Hell, if you won't even listen to the guys who dropped the things, who will you listen to? :confused:
 
The Japanese where not ready to surrender to the terms given. End of IMO. Wiling to surrender is no good, if it is not to the terms needed.

They where given numoures warnings and they where even told that more citys would be target, which they where.

So I can discount all the generals in your post then as useless as they are not the government?
 
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