The god delusion... Religious debate

Glaucus · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:48

rghjones said:
Again this depends on your definition of life, which is why I hate dictionaries being thrown around. If you just look at what makes us alive, then Earth (or any other planet) is as living as we are: it grows, changes shape, breathes, changes temperature and moves.

None of those relate to life.
It does not self replicate.

gurusan · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:49

Hatter The Mad said:
We have evolved the ability to live together and socialize. We have evolved 'morals'. We don't need a storybook to teach them to us.

No but it's quite helpful. It's the human way to teach through stories.

Hatter The Mad · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:49

rghjones said:
Hell, Earth might even react in the same way a plant reacts to light and resource.

It doesn't

gurusan · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:49

AcidHell2 said:
None of those relate to life.
It does not self replicate.

Anyone watch the Cell series on bbc4?

meghatronic · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:50

rghjones said:
Again this depends on your definition of life, which is why I hate dictionaries being thrown around. If you just look at what makes us alive, then Earth (or any other planet) is as living as we are: it grows, changes shape, breathes, changes temperature and moves.

The only difference is it doesn't think, but then the majority of life on Earth doesn't either (that we know of, again, what is 'thinking'). Hell, Earth might even react in the same way a plant reacts to light and resource.

There's a song with pretty terrible lyrics and a cringe-worthy metaphor but the logic is sound, and it goes something like this: If a butterfly, which only lives for a day, landed on a tree and you asked it if the tree was alive, it would say "No, I've been here my whole life and it hasn't done a thing". The same goes for humans/Earth.

Dictionaries being thrown around are necessary to overcome a clear semantics issue. You are confusing existence and life. One is, perhaps, a philosophical concept, one is absolutely and categorically definable!

The Earth does not grow, changing shape does not define life, it does not respire, changing temperature does not define life and it does not move independently! The only difference? Dude there are tens. Starting with reproduction - a defining characteristic of life.

durruti · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:50

I became quite a vervent athiest some time ago, now i've got to the stage of frustration with religion in society.

meghatronic · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:52

Hatter The Mad said:
We have evolved the ability to live together and socialize. We have evolved 'morals'. We don't need a storybook to teach them to us.

Morals and social abilities are not genetically inherited. They are taught. So what better way to teach than stories? It's the best way to teach children, for instance. Even if from an interest POV.

durruti said:
I became quite a vervent athiest some time ago, now i've got to the stage of frustration with religion in society.

Well nothing wrong with that at all is there? You're comfortable with your religion of non-religion. You should allow people to believe what they believe - as long as no one forces you to believe in something you do not.

Russinating · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:54

AcidHell2 said:
None of those relate to life.
It does not self replicate.

I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?

On an earlier scale all our planets and galaxies were created by different elements clashing together.

My point was that Earth has as much reason or lack thereof of existing as us.

meghatronic said:
Dictionaries being thrown around are necessary to overcome a clear semantics issue. You are confusing existence and life. One is, perhaps, a philosophical concept, one is absolutely and categorically definable!

The Earth does not grow, changing shape does not define life, it does not respire, changing temperature does not define life and it does not move independently! The only difference? Dude there are tens. Starting with reproduction - a defining characteristic of life.

Yeah yeah, it's 2am and my last biology class was 7 years ago

. See my point above ^^

UK|AL · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:54

To me believing in religion is like believing there is a teapot orbiting mars. I can't disprove it and I can't prove it, but i can take a good guess if there is a teapot orbiting mars.

All hail teapot.

Glaucus · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:56

rghjones said:
I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?
.

Yes huge difference.
Once causes it self to grow, expand and live.

The other has no such mechanisms.

gurusan · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:56

rghjones said:
I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?

......

really?

mattyprice4004 · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:57

UK|AL said:
To me believing in religion is like believing there is a teapot orbiting mars. I can't disprove it and I can't prove it, but i can take a good guess if there is a teapot orbiting mars.

You heard it here first folks!

Oh, and religion is clearly a poorly thought-through delusion for people to believe in and follow. Debated this for a long time, but nothing at all lines up with a 'creator' and all that.

meghatronic · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:57

rghjones said:
I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?

On an earlier scale all our planets and galaxies were created by different elements clashing together.

My point was that Earth has as much reason or lack thereof of existing as us.

Oh sweet merciful lord.

When a man loves a woman very much they have sex. The man puts his penis inside a womans vagina and after some time (seconds tbh) he releases something called sperm. Sperm are like blueprints to make another person in the man's image. This sperm meets a woman's single egg (her blueprints) and depending on which sperm meets the egg first, a child is made. This child is made from both the mother's and the father's blueprints and is unique.

Now, do you see why your analogy sucked ass?

Hades · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:57

rghjones said:
I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?

On an earlier scale all our planets and galaxies were created by different elements clashing together.

My point was that Earth has as much reason or lack thereof of existing as us.

I nearly said the same thing. If you look at the Universe then, over billions of years, you can see stars and planets both dying and forming. And what appears very interesting is that heavier elements are forming in those stars. Where there was originally only hydrogen there are now many elements being formed by the newer stars. So in some ways, evolution is conspiring to create more and more complex elements... a little like organisms on earth are gradually becoming more and more complex.

meghatronic · 31 Aug 2009 at 01:59

Hades said:
I nearly said the same thing. If you look at the Universe then, over billions of years, you can see stars and planets both dying and forming. And what appears very interesting is that heavier elements are forming in those stars. Where they was only hydrogen there are now many elements being formed by the newer stars. So in some ways, evolution is conspiring to create more and more complex elements... a little like organisms on earth are gradually becoming more and more complex.

Not [edit: the same as biological] evolution, laws of physics.

Russinating · 31 Aug 2009 at 02:00

meghatronic said:
Now, do you see why your analogy sucked ass?

I saw that before your beautiful explanation

. See above excuse.

Tiredness + sound head logic = fuzzed analogies + bad metaphors²

Hades · 31 Aug 2009 at 02:01

meghatronic said:
Not evolution, laws of physics.

And some could argue that at the very raw level those laws are the same. The Grand Unification Theory.

meghatronic · 31 Aug 2009 at 02:04

Hades said:
And some could argue that at the very raw level those laws are the same. The Grand Unification Theory.

Well, a really simple explanation is a deity is behind all laws. Or a big law is behind all laws. I was trying to draw a line between living and non-living.

Hatter The Mad · 31 Aug 2009 at 02:06

rghjones said:
I'm pulling at hairs here, but the Moon is the product of a meteor striking Earth, is it not? I agree with your point (not that it's a point, it's fact) but is that so different to sperms and eggs?

On an earlier scale all our planets and galaxies were created by different elements clashing together.

My point was that Earth has as much reason or lack thereof of existing as us.

Yeah yeah, it's 2am and my last biology class was 7 years ago . See my point above ^^

*facepalm*

Hades · 31 Aug 2009 at 02:07

meghatronic said:
Well, a really simple explanation is a deity is behind all laws. Or a big law is behind all laws. I was trying to draw a line between living and non-living.

And that is the question... is it a deity or a law behind everything?

And if it is is a deity then where is he/she and what law do they have to obey?