Autodromo Nazionale Monza - Italian Grand Prix 2009 - Race 13/17

stockhausen said:
I suspect that most people who were watching the race had a pretty fair idea from lap 36 who was going to be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th and that Vettel wasn't going to get any points at all - right up until Hamilton pretty pointlessly overcooked it ;)
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excluding the Hamilton incident you could guess who was going to be in the majority of points positions - but could you really be sure who would be where?

There is still of course this issue with RB gear box to play out (whether it affects any race at all is another matter, but the team are already concerned after only 2 of hte 4 required races)
 
Eat your heart out Christian Horner

With Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber both in the fight to hunt down the Brawn driver for the championship, [Christian Horner] likened Button’s situation to a soccer player about to blow an important match with a penalty shot. “I’d be a worried man if I was him. Wouldn’t you be? At the moment he is like Stuart Pearce taking a penalty. You can see he (Button) has tightened up since (winning in) Turkey” Horner said.


[Horner] said that if he had to place a bet based on street-fighting qualities, he would back Button’s rivals to win the championship.

http://www.flagworld.com/news/?p=24017
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I guess that he was referring to Rubens, it certainly isn't likely to have been the luckless and almost pointless Vettel or Webber :p
 
stockhausen said:
I suspect that most people who were watching the race had a pretty fair idea from lap 36 who was going to be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th and that Vettel wasn't going to get any points at all - right up until Hamilton pretty pointlessly overcooked it ;)
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To quote a proverb from the Book Of Walker - "anything can happen in Formula One, and it usually does".
 
FrankJH said:
How do you reckon he was outpaced - with the gap 3 seconds before the last lap / safety car

They finished in the exact order they started the race, and majority of difference (apart from the aero diff of 1.5s - 2s that you cant get closer) was made up by the team in their one and only pit stop

So actually Rubens made a whole 0.5s in around 50 laps - HOW AMAZING!!!!
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I admire your dedication to fight on Button's behalf - clearly you are a great fan of his.

The fact, as you pointed out is that Barrichello outqualified (and outpaced) his team mate. And in the race, he was able to outpace him yet again, by making up 0.5s (which would've been more, had not slowed down in the closing laps).

The fact is that Barrichello has been faster than Button over the last few races. You may not like to read that, but its a fact. Where the first half of the season, Barrichello was fast, but was very inconsistent - getting involved in silly crashes and playing bumper cars.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Sunama you keep saying Heiki is the best no2 but any time anyone mentions someone else you say they are an equal no1. Perhaps you should list the drivers that are no2's this season so we can see the list to choose from?
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These are the No.2 drivers which Heikki beat:

Ferrari - Fisichella
Force India - Liuzzi
Renault - Grozjean

He also beat the following (joint) No.1 drivers:
both BMW drivers - joint No.1s
both RedBull drivers - joint No.1s
both Toro Rosso drivers
both Williams drivers
both Toyota drivers

The only drivers who finished ahead of him are:
the Brawn drivers, who nobody (including Hamilton), was unable to beat, on the day.
Kimi, who is actually driving well these days.
Sutil, who had one of his best races, ever.
And Alonso, who most would argue is the best driver currently in F1.

Kimi could've done better, but his performance in the last few races are certainly not worthy of seeing him sacked.

Last year, when he first joined McLaren, he was absolutely abysmal, where Hamilton was easily doubling Heikki's points total. When McLaren had one of the best cars on the grid, he was getting beat by several cars who had no right to be finishing ahead of him.

The problem with bringing in another top line driver is that that other driver will demand equal No.1 status, which will creat serious problems within the team. After having so many problems in 2007, it would be silly for McLaren to expect Hamilton to be able to get along with any driver who is capable of competing with him. In order to keep the peace, McLaren need a good No.2 driver who will move over when ordered and who wont complain when Hamilton gets the best equipment and is given preferential treatment on the track.
 
sunama said:
...
The fact is that Barrichello has been faster than Button over the last few races. You may not like to read that, but its a fact. Where the first half of the season, Barrichello was fast, but was very inconsistent - getting involved in silly crashes and playing bumper cars.
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I agree.

I seem to recall that not so very long ago, Rubens very publicly threw his toys out of the pram big-time, implying as I recall that Brawn GP favoured Button. Some people even questioned whether he would or should be sacked.

Ross Brawn did an absolutely fantastic job of calming things down and doubtless told Rubens in no uncertain terms that he should not throw such a public fit ever again.

What I can't quite work out / remember is what the chronology of this tantrum and the remarkable improvement in Ruben's performance was. Did Ross Brawn just convince him that he was loved and respected or is it just possible that Rubens was spot-on and that Brawn GP felt compelled to stop showing favouratism towards Button :confused:

I am genuinely curious . . .
 
stockhausen said:
What I can't quite work out / remember is what the chronology of this tantrum ...
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At the Spanish GP, Barrichello was leading the race. The optimal strategy was a 2 stopper, however the Brawn drivers were using a 3-stop strategy. Brawn saw this and switched Button (but not Barrichello) to the faster 2 stop strategy. Barrichello led until the first round of stops, but after the 3 stops played their part, Button ended up in front of Barrichello.

Barrichello then concluded that his team had engineered the result to ensure that Button finished ahead of Barrichello.

In another race, around this time, I remember Barrichello once again being ahead of Button. However, after some pit-stop shenanigans, Button managed to overtake Barrichello. Once again, Barrichello berated his team for apparently favouring Button.

For all subsequent races, the team placed Barrichello on the same strategy as Button (with no mid-race strategy changes) and performed well during pitstops. This allowed Barrichello's superior pace to finally show in the final race race results.

stockhausen said:
and the remarkable improvement in Ruben's performance was.
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Have a read of this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8254706.stm

It offers interesting reasons as to why Barrichello is now faster than Button.


The key points are:
Championship pressure has almost certainly played its part with Jenson ...

We've talked on this site this year already about the Brawn's struggle to generate the necessary tyre temperature whenever the track surface is a little cool.

Barrichello's driving style copes with this better than Button's. Rubens generally has a more adaptable, flexible approach than Button who needs very specific things from a car to perform to his best.

On a cool day or on a track with a layout that does not ask too much from the tyres, that tends to put Barrichello in better shape than Button.

Brawn thrilled with Monza one-two
There was a period from Silverstone through Germany and Hungary when the car just could not generate the necessary tyre temperature - and suddenly Barrichello became the quicker Brawn driver.

"I struggled a little bit at the beginning of the year with the brakes," said Rubens, "but since we changed it at Silverstone I am a lot happier with it. We had developments on the car since then and the car has become better and better. I need to put it down to the braking that my performance has become a little bit better."

The material of the brake discs was changed mid-season, giving the brake pedal a different feel. Barrichello likes to quite decisively stand on the pedal immediately, Button prefers a more progressive building of pressure.
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sunama said:
The fact, as you pointed out is that Barrichello outqualified (and outpaced) his team mate. And in the race, he was able to outpace him yet again, by making up 0.5s (which would've been more, had not slowed down in the closing laps).
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so 0.01s a lap faster is "outpacing" - thats seriously taking the expression to extremes

a blink of an eye is slower than that

Its NOT fact - its within margin of error, its absolutely f all

And no it wouldnt have been more because that gap was what it was BEFORE hamilton crashed

edit - put it this way, that kind of time difference can easily be put down to the actual differences in the two cars themselves (not the driver, driving style, fuel weight, weather but the fabrication of certain parts on Ruben's car being that tiny little bit better) - even with how precise F1 has to be that kind of difference is to my mind splitting hairs would be easier
 
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As above. Just saw it on Sky Sports. I'm not suprised tbh. Alonso and the team will be dissapointed that they left without disputing and they've still got the hearing next week as well!
 
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