Death of the manual gearbox.

[TW]Fox · 1 Nov 2009 at 22:30

TaKeN said:
Manual or Auto for you then Fox?

Manual or Semi-Auto. Never conventional automatic, a torque convertor automatic has key benefits for certain types of drivers yet I found they irritated me quite a lot. However everything I find wrong with torque convertor automatics is a non issue in a good semi auto.

And no, tiptronic control of a torque convertor auto doesn't count.

[TW]Fox · 1 Nov 2009 at 22:31

MikeHunt79 said:
I'd quite like a sequential box like they use on rally cars... Are there any road legal cars with this option?

Although they are not true sequential boxes as per a rally car the operation of automatics and semi automatic systems with paddle or tiptronic control is sequential and has been for many years.

PMKeates · 1 Nov 2009 at 22:55

AcidHell2 said:
Not at an entire market type mass production.

Over 20% of BMW's sales are in North America. Most of these will be automatics. Another 50% of sales are in the Euro 5 markets, and many of these will be automatics. I'd guess a third of all BMW's made are fitted with automatic transmissions, so I'd imagine that's pretty mass market.

In fact, the situation will be similar for a large number of manufacturers. Toyota, Ford, GM.. they all produce more automatic transmission vehicles than manual, yet the price remains the same.

Fr0dders · 1 Nov 2009 at 23:04

incidentally

are the paddles a cost extra with DCT as i cant see any sort of paddles in photos of DCT equipped cars ?

lordrobs · 1 Nov 2009 at 23:15

I can see it happening and for a regular use car its a change that I would welcome.

I understand the comments about feeling more connected when using a nice manual but the same can be said for not having ABS or power steering or having a cable operated throttle etc...

aproctor · 1 Nov 2009 at 23:25

AcidHell2 said:
it'll happen. it''s outdated and the vast majority of the public don't need and don't want it. It's got a while left though.

I didn't say it wouldn't happen, i said i doubt we will see a day when you cannot pick it as an option.

You could argue that manual gearboxes are like RWD.

For the everyday user the benefits are minimal/non existent, but there are still cars and marques which offer it on certain models or across the whole marque.

The type of people who want manuals will still be able to get them, as they can get rwd now.

Some might say "but Porsche are getting rid of manuals", who buys these cars typically? For every petrol head that buys one i would imagine there are 3 balding 55 year olds next in line.

I think it's nice to have options and if there is demand they will still be made e.g. "smokers kits" in new cars.

Fr0dders · 1 Nov 2009 at 23:48

aproctor said:
Some might say "but Porsche are getting rid of manuals", who buys these cars typically? For every petrol head that buys one i would imagine there are 3 balding 55 year olds next in line.

I think it's nice to have options and if there is demand they will still be made e.g. "smokers kits" in new cars.

Ferrari disagrees

they've totally disbanded the option from all new cars now as they say its not worth their while still making them.

And i cant think of a car more aimed at petrolheads than ferraris

once other companies double clutch manual/auto boxes become as acomplished as ferraris

the people wanting a normal manual will be so small that they will just stop bothering offering them. Like ferrari now have.

knowlesy · 1 Nov 2009 at 23:58

Andr3w said:
Argh! I love using a manual gear box it makes the driving feel more involved!

(Grated I will proberly never be able to afford a Ferarri )

agreed!!!

Scania · 2 Nov 2009 at 01:20

The heavy truck market is certainly drifting toward automatics rather than manuals.

When I worked for James Irlam Logistics, they were replacing the entire fleet of DAF HGV's with automatics (manual boxes with automatic linkage / clutch rather than a torque converter) due to the rumoured £150k p/a they were spending on burnt out clutches(!) Eddie Stobart (who bought out James Irlam back in 2008) were doing a similar thing but for fuel savings rather than clutch replacement costs.

Apparently, the "Jungle drums" at Stobart say the fleet managers are considering going back to manual spec trucks when the next batch of 500 trucks gets replaced as the fuel economy apparently suffers with automatics albeit not by much. When you consider the huge annual mileage of the fleet however, you soon appreciate how much say a difference of 0.5MPG between manual & automatic has a massive effect on the companys operating costs.....

Personally, I prefer manuals (despite my previous e38 and current e36 being auto!) but do admit the Scania "Opticruise" gearbox is a nice compromise.

It has a clutch pedal which you use to pull away and when you stop but once the trucks moving it changes up & down automatically which is a real bonus with a 14speed 'box I can tell you!

The recently revised Scania "R Series" has dispensed with the clutch pedal on the automatics completely which I feel is a backward step from the point of view of an HGV driver, auto's are no where near precise enough for some of the delicate shunting required to get a 53ft long rig in a space designed for a Horse & cart, being able to use the clutch for just the right amount of "bite" makes a big difference imo.

Whilst I love my current 08 plate "Opticruise" equipped Scania, I'm looking forward to a manual if & when Stobart decide to get them....

Dogbreath · 2 Nov 2009 at 08:24

R420LA6X2/4MNA said:
Personally, I prefer manuals (despite my previous e38 and current e36 being auto!) but do admit the Scania "Opticruise" gearbox is a nice compromise.

When your truck has more gears than the average dérailleur system I would expect an auto system to be quite handy

NathanE · 2 Nov 2009 at 08:29

If the replacement is paddleshift, go for it. If the replacement is full auto.... :/

I get around · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:00

lordrobs said:
I can see it happening and for a regular use car its a change that I would welcome.

I understand the comments about feeling more connected when using a nice manual but the same can be said for not having ABS or power steering or having a cable operated throttle etc...

Ha ha, I still have no ABS, power steering and my throttle is cable operated.

Thing is, it's not like they're braking for you, or steering for you, or using the throttle for you. They're making it easier and more precise having all this gadgetry in mordern cars.

An auto changes gear for you, and takes away a complete part of driving a car.

Jez · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:07

NickXX said:
I wouldn't be particularly fussed if 'proper' manuals died out.

Indeed, i cannot foresee a situation whereby i would ever want to buy, or be interested in buying a full manual gearbox. They offer absolutely nothing to me and are merely a pointless hinderance to my daily drive.

To be honest i know very very few people with manual gearbox cars anyway, they are certainly getting pretty rare already as far as i can see, other than in small low budget town cars.

I am absolutely all for semi auto becoming the norm. The best of both worlds.

eidolon · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:19

Jez said:
I am absolutely all for semi auto becoming the norm. The best of both worlds.

In theory it is, however in reality it's not though. The DSG box in the TT was fun, but too clever for its own good which meant that instead of getting ready for a flick on the paddle to change up at the perfect moment I just waited and let the box decide what was best. Same applied when changing down, instead of watching the revs and changing down when the time was right, the box had already decided that I was 50rpm under the optimum so it did the work for me.

Whilst that's great, and you get a computer making sure each gearchange is spot on, it does take away from the fun. It ends up just like a Playstation game and gets a bit boring really. Theres not much skill involved in choosing between two pedals and turning the steering wheel. Give me a proper gearbox any day.

!bluetonic! · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:47

I'm sure we'll get to the stage of CVT with programmable 'shift points' for some driver interaction. You could retard the engine performance and for a younger driver, automatic shifting for your lady friend and high revving paddle shifting fun for sir. This will also come with programmable engine noise and exhaust note.

I'm happy driving either and for my commute, but I would prefer a manual for leafy, wet, twisty, hilly B roads to be a bit more 'in control' and an auto for traffic heavy and long motorway runs.

You'd still need to pass your test in a manual for the best of both worlds, so can't see them phasing out that quickly.

nate247 · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:50

Having been driving an Audi with DSG for the past few days I must admit that it does afford you more time to concentrate on the road as opposed to changing gear every few seconds (especially in traffic).

I love manual gear changing when driving fast (don't get me wrong) but for the other 95% of the time DSG deffo feels like the way forward for me & IO think I'd rather drive a DSG car now as I do so much town / motorway mileage.

Jez · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:54

eidolon said:
Whilst that's great, and you get a computer making sure each gearchange is spot on, it does take away from the fun. It ends up just like a Playstation game and gets a bit boring really. Theres not much skill involved in choosing between two pedals and turning the steering wheel. Give me a proper gearbox any day.

Fewer and fewer people agree with that POV, as the Ferrari decision testifies to. The full manual gearbox is a relic which is already fairly rare as far as i can tell (in higher end cars).

Peerzy · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:56

Jez said:
Fewer and fewer people agree with that POV, as the Ferrari decision testifies to. The full manual gearbox is a relic which is already fairly rare as far as i can tell (in higher end cars).

In the high end stuff (S-Class etc) I'm sure that is the case but I'm willing to bet there are still far more manuals on the road than automatics (thanks to everyone and there mother driving a Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Golf/Focus/Astra).

miniyazz · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:58

Peerzy said:
In the high end stuff (S-Class etc) I'm sure that is the case but I'm willing to bet there are still far more manuals on the road than automatics (thanks to everyone and there mother driving a Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Golf/Focus/Astra).

Which means, ultimately, that (semi-)automatic is the way forward and in time even the small hatchbacks will adopt it.

nate247 · 2 Nov 2009 at 10:58

There are deffo more manuals on the road but I do agree with Jez in that auto boxes are more prevalent in the higher end stuff like Audi A6 / A8, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, Jag's etc. Its been that way for years now...