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Intel to pay AMD $1.25bn

No, Hyperthreading, SMT and CMT are all just the same thing, they can be implemented differently, but its still about getting more than 1 thread through a single core at the same time. Sun for example can push up to 8 threads through a single core on their SMT chip Niagra.
AMD's John Fruehe, their server development chief, has confirmed that a Bulldozer cluster's 2 integer 'cores' will be presented to the OS as 2 threads, not 4. They are not in any way attempting to execute multiple threads on one core, the chip won't be capable of that.

TBH, the only way Bulldozer can be said to be doing any form of HT is if you believe a single cluster = 1 traditional core, but since each cluster has two completely seperate sets of int pipelines, with each being able to run under load without affecting the performance of the other, that's a very bizarre interpretation of the design.
 
A large payout, not sure if it'll have a large impact though. Interesting to read everyones comments about the Bulldozer, though to be totally honest I tend to edge towards lower expectations. Some of us probably remember Intel saying Itanium was going to be a massive step change in CPUs and forecasting like $40 odd billion in annual sales :/

I think Intel have too much of a hold on the CPU market for AMD to challenge like they did in the past. Hope I'm proved wrong though :)
 
Wow, I'm surprised, I expected this to go on for years, and never getting resolved.

So this means Intel admit guilt?

Here's to hoping Amd are able to become more competitive, and get more market traction. I dont think theirs any chance of them going out of business now as they've always had the better prices, they should have more chance of leveraging that now(plus performance being less of a factor now).
 
So this means Intel admit guilt?

nope.

basically Intel have settled out of court whilst not admitting or denying any wrong doing on it's own part. the $1.25bn will be to cover any & all costs AMD have incurred over the years of litigation the 2 have been engaged in.
 
nope.

basically Intel have settled out of court whilst not admitting or denying any wrong doing on it's own part. the $1.25bn will be to cover any & all costs AMD have incurred over the years of litigation the 2 have been engaged in.

I read that too, I don't buy it for a second, no way have AMD spent $1BN on litigation. More likely it's payout IMHO
 
It's good news for both AMD and Intel, only time will tell if it's good for the consumer. This money gives AMD ~18-24 months to become competitive. If they haven't done it by then then I can't see them doing it- at least as an indepedant company. They have got a cash injection from the sale of their fabs, and now this $1.25bn. 24 months from now they should have release of everything that they have spent the last few years working on: the replacement to Phenom, Fusion, their new mobile chips and ultra mobile- possible for phones etc. Not all of these need to be run-away success stories, but at least 1 of them needs to a cash cow. Unless they start making serious cash they just won't be able to fund the R&D that is needed to compete with Intel/ARM clients. A weak AMD is much worse than no AMD as if AMD were forced out of the market, or bought out, then someone with the financial muscle, like the juggernaut that is Samsung, could step in and take their place.


That could be right if the guys who own half of AMD and Glofo didn't have more money than god.

put it this way, AMD's owners have more money in their wallets to spend on frivilous crap than Intel, IBM, Apple and a bunch of other companies have together in their banks.

AMD are in no financial trouble, right now AMD's chips make a HUGE profit. THe only reason AMD isn't profitable all in, is because it quite literally costs 3-4billion to retool for a new process and another couple billion in R&D support in all the other companies they give money to invest in the next tech. This is spread out amongst 5-6 fabs at Intel, who sell more chips per years, while AMD need to Spend the EXACT SAME AMOUNT on R&D as INtel, but that gets spread across a much smaller amount of fabs and chips being made.

So basically say both companies spend 6billion to get from 65 to 45nm, Intel cover this cost amongst 5 fabs that produce 400million chips, AMD have the same cost but only run 2 fabs and sell 100million chips.

Chip production NOW is profitable, the reason to go fabless is to have the secondary company be able to get new clients, more fabs, and spread the R&D cost amongst lots more companies and far more chips sold in total. This will basically instantly push AMD into profitability. Remember right now they've already paid for all the R&D, they've paid most of the costs of R&D towards 32nm for GloFo as its been being researched for years. Its really the next few years all those costs shift to GloFo, and AMD's expenditure drops by an amount in the range of 4-6billion every two years. If AMD had spent 4-6 billion less every 2 years for the past decade, they'd be ridiculously rich with 30billion in the bank rather than only around 4 billion in debt. When you consider the limitations of only running two fabs(it takes much longer to switch over to a new process when you can't test it on one fab while ramping production on the other fabs to make up for the loss, intel can stick a new process in one fab at a time straight away, AMD have to wait months for yields to be high enough to make the switch and pay a LOT to switch the fabs over as quickly as possible), the fact they are only around 4billion in debt, when they are spending 5-6billion every two years just on R&D and buying equipment for new processes, thats why 4billion is actually a VERY small number for a company spending quite a lot more than that all told every couple of years.

THe new fab in New York state that GloFO are footing the bill for is costing around 7billion, only about 1.5-2billion is construction the rest is the equipment, thats just how much it costs, with a further few billion every drop to a new smaller process. Even with GloFo footing the bill for the final equipment AMD themselves over the past years will have sunk billions in the developement of that equipment, and they've already spent a lot on 22nm aswell and are investing in research for 16/11nm.

But this is the thing, they make a lot of money on their cpu's, and sell a lot, without a hugely competitive top end chip. The fact is though, their tri core's are priced against Intel dual cores, their low end quad cores are priced against Intel quad cores, for 90% of home users AMD offers what performance they NEED for less than Intel. Intel offer the performance 5% of the population wants, but charge more for it. You make money both ways.

WIth Bulldozer they have a superb chip going exactly the way they need to. I'd suggest Intel will be moving away from overly large FPU units within their CPU cores as they bring GPU's capable of doing FPU better and with lower power in their future CPU's too.

Basically CPU's always excelled at interger calc, gpu's are fpu monsters that no cpu can come close to keeping up with and are only getting better. Once they are both on die it won't be long before FPU is almost exclusively in the gpu section of a cpu. Bulldozer is a half step there and has insane interger power.

ANyway all that aside, one of the reasons AMD are doing so well is their platform of gpu/cpu/mobo is so powerful for an incredibly competitive price, that will continue and Larabee probably isn't that close to competing at any level for now in performance. It will probably be 2-3 generations before Intel are really up to date and pushing ATI at the low mid and high ends of discrete gpu's, till then AMD are selling good numbers to OEM's and thats all that matters.
 
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thanks for explaining that =) How long did it take to type that last post?? took ages to read lol. You wouldn't have some sources so i could do some light reading up? Im assuming most is taken from the companies own press releases?
 
Both Phenom and Core 2 already have multiple execution units, even pentium 4 had 2 ALU (integer units) in each core. I belive with Core 2 that up to 3 integer instructions can be processed by each "core" in any given clock cycle.

Bulldozer may have more execution units again, which could make it a 4, 5 or even more "issue" core, but thats still a single core. Intels HT doesnt "fake" a core as such, its very common with a wide core that at any given time there will be unused execution units available, and SMT/HT/CMT whatever you want to call it is designed to make use of spare capacity.

Lets for the sake of arguing say that AMD designed a core with 50 execution units designed for a combination of integer, fpu, and sse, clearly thats a lot more redundant execution units compared to intels 4 (and a half) execution units, so its going to be able to run multiple threads much better than Core 2 can.

Increasing the execution units is efficient, because modern CPU's translate their programs from X86/X64 machine code into risc like "micro-ops". These micro ops can often be pushed through the execution units out of sequence, and much wider than raw X86 machine code can. Thus when intel increased the number of execution units from 3 to 4, there was a good increase in performance for single threaded applications.

In this way a big wide core can make single threaded applications faster, but there is a limit to how much the micro-ops can be run out of sequence.

AMD's current Phenom II's are 3 issue cores compared to Intels 4 issue core. We can only speculate what Bulldozer and the next Intel architecture will have. But unlike true additional cores (where increasing the execution performance of single threaded applications is very hard without increaseing clock speeds), additional execution units within a single core can increase performance, however there will be diminishing returns, as eventually the applications hit branches, and wait for results before moving on. Thats the reason for pushing additional threads through 1 core.... Keep all thoses execution units busy.

Intel's theory is simple... take a moderatly wide core, and when available use the resourses for a second thread. AMD's bulldozer perhaps its design is such that it has enough spare execution units that more of the time its able to share them between 2 threads. IE if it was an 8 issue core, it may be that it could get a 5/3, or a 4/4 split between two threads, leading to a much greater performance gain when the CPU is running a number of well designed multithreaded applications. But the odds of a single threaded application being able to make full use of an 8 issue core... I wouldnt put much money on that.

It will be fun to see. I had hoped Phenom wouldnt just be an "almost" as good design. Without real competition there is no stress on intel to do its best work. Look at Core 2, its a fantastic processor, and why does it exist.. simple, AMD's Athlon64 was able to blow Pentium IV clean out of the water, without a strong competition Intel have just made minor improvements over the last few years, Nehalem is good yes, but really its only a retuned Conroe as far as its core architecture is concerned. It still works on a 4+1 issue core.

Go Go AMD, push out a great chip, and lets watch to see what the boys at intel respond with... Hopefully their answer wont be dodgy discounts, and sneaking marketting.
 
That could be right if the guys who own half of AMD and Glofo didn't have more money than god.

put it this way, AMD's owners have more money in their wallets to spend on frivilous crap than Intel, IBM, Apple and a bunch of other companies have together in their banks.

AMD are in no financial trouble, right now AMD's chips make a HUGE profit.

Sorry, that's all wrong. ATIC, the abu dhabi investment company, owns the controlling share of Globalfoundries but do not own a single share in AMD.

AMD are probably making a profit on their chips, but they still have to finance their debt- both their own, and some of globalfoundries as they own ~35-40% of it. That is why they have reported loss after loss for the last 8-9 quarters.

AMD's John Fruehe, their server development chief, has confirmed that a Bulldozer cluster's 2 integer 'cores' will be presented to the OS as 2 threads, not 4. They are not in any way attempting to execute multiple threads on one core, the chip won't be capable of that

On of us is confused, I am not sure whom! The way I read it is that each bulldozer core has 2 integer cluster cores. So two threads can run on a single bulldozer core, which is what HT does. However the difference is AMD's method isn't limited to occasions where a thread is under utilizing the resources.

However AMD's main problem is execution not design. Intel have nearly hit every target that they set since they moved to the Core CPU's, while AMD have hardly hit a single target in the same time frame. The constant delays just make it too easy for Intel to react- Fusion is the perfect example. AMD made it a corner stone of their future development, but they delayed it from 2008 to at best 2011, while Intel are only weeks away from releasing their 'reply', which will hit the market a full year before AMD's!
 
Phenom II execution was pretty good... Hopefully they will keep doing that! ATi still executes perfectly ever since they released HD38xx.

If AMD can get developers to utilise the graphics cores inside their fusion chips for GPGPU using OpenCL then this could be a goldmine.

Time will tell!
 
On of us is confused, I am not sure whom! The way I read it is that each bulldozer core has 2 integer cluster cores. So two threads can run on a single bulldozer core, which is what HT does. However the difference is AMD's method isn't limited to occasions where a thread is under utilizing the resources.
It's mostly a terminology problem, clusters vs cores, etc. AMD's John Fruehe clarified this in a post over at AnandTech:

"There are bulldozer modules, not bulldozer cores. Let's all get on the same page here and this will go a lot quicker. Half of the problem is someone confusing a core for a module.

I will use interlagos for this explanation since I am in the server business (I will never comment on desktop, don't know enough about that business.)

Interlagos is a 16-core processor. It will have 16 logical integer cores and it will appear to the hardware and OS as 16 cores. An interlagos will be made up of EIGHT bulldozer modules. Each module will have 2 integer cores plus a shared 256-bit FPU (which we will get to in a second). 8 x 2 = 16.

Each integer core will run one thread (there are 4 pipelines). That means 2 cores per module, simultaneously.

The FPU is 256-bit. During each clock cycle it can be either 256-bit for either core OR it can be 128-bit for each core simultaneously."


I think it's pretty clear from that post that 1 Bulldozer 'module' = 2 Int cores = 2 threads. So there's no fake HT cores, just two real cores that happen to share some resources. My reading of the design is that it's possible for a Bulldozer module's front end to at least attempt to issue instructions from a single thread to both cores, boosting single thread performance when one core has no thread of its own to execute. But details are so sparse I could well be wrong on that!

The constant delays just make it too easy for Intel to react- Fusion is the perfect example. AMD made it a corner stone of their future development, but they delayed it from 2008 to at best 2011, while Intel are only weeks away from releasing their 'reply', which will hit the market a full year before AMD's!
It's the old debate about being first or being best. AMD deliberately killed their 45nm Fusion chip believing it simply wasn't possible to do the concept justice within the transistor budget available at 45nm and presumably banking on Intel not being able to ship a worthwhile competitor even with their process tech advantage.

To be fair to AMD that seems to be the case. Intel's Clarkdale will, as you say, beat Llano to market by a year or more but it's not really a fusion chip. It's just a dual-core with the IGP removed from the chipset and bolted onto the same package as the CPU. The only advantage to that is a small cost saving, there's not much in the way of performance improvement.

If Llano's specs are as rumoured (4 Athlon II cores + an on-die 480 shader GPU) it should be a much better all-round package than anything Intel can produce, particularly as use of OpenCL/DirectCompute picks up among apps and games.
 
Thanks for the info DrBombcrater, I think that clears it up!

Of course Intel moving to 32nm also helps with their CPU/GPU combo. Globalfoundries is essential to the future of AMD, and possible Nvidia and ARM, as they need to close gap in the node business. Been 12 months behind, and some 2 years behind with key technoliogies like high-k, is not viable in the longterm if Intel are able to get a competitive GPU/mobile chip.
 
Thanks for the info DrBombcrater, I think that clears it up!

Of course Intel moving to 32nm also helps with their CPU/GPU combo. Globalfoundries is essential to the future of AMD, and possible Nvidia and ARM, as they need to close gap in the node business. Been 12 months behind, and some 2 years behind with key technoliogies like high-k, is not viable in the longterm if Intel are able to get a competitive GPU/mobile chip.

Yup, Drbombcrater's quote basically explains it, you can really call/describe it in a bunch of ways, but what you would call a traditional 8 core Bulldozer will have 16 int units and be capable of running 16 threads, none sharing interger power. It will be a beast but as said it might be a bit unbalanced for FPU till it gets the gpu on die AND programming, in terms of both OS and programs can utilise an on die GPU as basically a dedicated FPU core aswell when not being used for games.

Global foundries doesn't have any shares in AMD, Mudabala which is part of ATIC basically owns 19.3% of AMD, they already owned 9% or so, and they also has a warrant to buy 30million more shares, which would be roughly a further 7-8% or so of AMD and at the moment be around a further 200-250million cost. SO AMD own 45%(ish) of Global, and ATIC own the other 55ish %, but they both have equal representation on the Global board, and both have an equal say, despite owning more than can't over ride AMD's vote in the company, AMD very much still "own" half of Global and basically you now have ATIC, Mudabala, AMD, Global in some kind of incestuous relationship thats probably split up and shared ownership for various tax reasons and hiding their ridiculous sums of cash.

Basically Mudabala and ATIC are both investment companies soley owned by the Government of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi. IF you look at the board of directors and people involved in both, its almost the same damn company. THe Chairman of the board of ATIC is the Chief operating officer of Mudabala. I honestly have no clue why the separate companys, or how they are classified, if ATIC is simply the technology/semiconductor Arm of Mudabala or not.

But what you can plainly say is ATIC most certainly own part of AMD, have a massive massive stake in their ongoing business, would have no real customers for the Dresden fabs without AMD chips, would be lost without AMD. Yes ATIC have more money than Intel, massively massive more, yes they've already invested 20 odd billion in getting Global Foundries off the ground, yes they've commited to invest more, its in the contracts for the AMD split, they are contractually obliged to commit a further 6 or so billion(though most of that was for New York State fab, basically the agreement ensured it would be built), but theres also probably further investment thats contractually obliged in the future.

There is no way in hell Global/ATIC will see AMD go under. Either way, with the 1.25billion from Intel going to pay off debt, the 1.2billion of debt Global Foundries assumed off AMD, the outlook now is that by 2012, when a large portion of the debt is due, it will now be as little as 500million(a little under) which is quite literally nothing compared to keeping Global Foundries biggest customer in business(also nothing compared to what the debt was).

AMD are funded through the teeth with no end in sight for backing and investment for as long as we can foresee, they are in no financial trouble, at all.

Some basic explanation of the deal, who owns what and a brief description of the companys involved at the bottom


http://www.advancedtechnologyic.com/media/The-Foundry-Company-Announcement.pdf

Its funny how utterly succesful their investing of oil money in companies around the world has been, where is it the Sultan of Brunai left investing to his brother who wasted billions on crap around the world. Thankfully the right bunch of oil trillionaires invested in AMD ;)
 
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Perhaps, its a case of Intel paying up because the realised they need AMD. If not for the poached technologys, if nothing else just to keep everyone of their backs. They would probably make less money from being a monopoly with all the problems that come with it whereas being always first in a two contender race is less hassle.
 
Perhaps, its a case of Intel paying up because the realised they need AMD. If not for the poached technologys, if nothing else just to keep everyone of their backs. They would probably make less money from being a monopoly with all the problems that come with it whereas being always first in a two contender race is less hassle.

Honestly its because they knew they had done dodgey things, OEM's have admitted as much publically in the past. They'd almost certainly get stung for more eventually but not with the added lawyer costs and time involved its simply cheaper and easier.

Its also for convinience, its almost a nuisance case, while AMD were likely correct in this, as many companies believe so, its a years long case, and years left to go, of many many people involve being called up for depositions, from BOTH sides. AMD could do without half their exec's, board members and CEO's being called up every other day to answer questions, attend meetings, talk to lawyers daily about the case phone around Dell and the likes and have Dell, Sony, HP CEO's and other people being called in for depositions. Frankly those guys probably wanted an end to it aswell. IT was mostly just better for almost everyone, for the case to simply go away.

Thing is Intel probably got off quite lightly, but thats an issue with massive massive cases like these, they take so long to get to any kind of realistic enforced settlement its just not worth the hassel. Like those class action lawsuits that films like Erin Brockovich is based on, huge companies can utterly sink you in paperwork and depositions, making lawsuits so expensive and difficult its barely worth it, even when you get a settlement they can be appealed multiple times over years, delaying any payment and increasing the lawyer cost massively.

These things are largely to complex large and time consuming to prosecute effectively these days.
 

Surely they would have to pay up since they settled? If someone made judgment fair enought but when its something they agrees surely they would be challanging themselves. Kinda conjours the image of a guy with two personalities arguing with himself lol.

Also you seem to suggest that they had no intention of letting the law suit go through and only did it to create a huge mountain of paper to bury AMD? Guess if you can't bury them one way, do it another?
 
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