Banks win Supreme Court case on overdraft charges

Hatter The Mad · 26 Nov 2009 at 15:25

peter_hutson said:
Thats a very interesting post. I had no idea that many of these systems were so antiquated. Quite shocking really.

It essentially the same for the Direct Debit system, but they have less of an excuse for modernising.

el_dazza · 26 Nov 2009 at 15:25

Gittins said:
All I'm thinking is that the ammount they charge is questionable

That's what the whole thing was about?!

Hairybudda · 26 Nov 2009 at 18:30

el_dazza said:
That's what the whole thing was about?!

No it wasn't, it was about whether or not they could be assessed for fairness, which they cant from the angle the OFT were coming from.

Angilion · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:15

khimbar said:
Someone I know works for the A/L (though maybe not for much longer the way things are going) and he put it something like this...

'People think that when they go overdrawn it's their money they're spending. It's not. It's the banks. It's not a right it's a favour.

No, it isn't. A favour is something done for free. Money loaned with interest is not a favour.

If, for example, I gave you a lift somewhere, that would be a favour. If I charged you at double the normal taxi rate, that is not a favour. If I charged you at double the normal taxi rate plus £30 because I could, that is also not a favour.

meghatronic · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:21

Angilion said:
No, it isn't. A favour is something done for free. Money loaned with interest is not a favour.

If, for example, I gave you a lift somewhere, that would be a favour. If I charged you at double the normal taxi rate, that is not a favour. If I charged you at double the normal taxi rate plus £30 because I could, that is also not a favour.

Favour - an act of kindness beyond what is due

Angilion · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:22

glitch said:
I already pay a monthly fee for my banking and I'm happy to do so for the service I receive and thus I'm 'pro' service charges because I don't see why people should get a free ride for not being capable of managing their money effectively. [..]

According to the usual pro-charges argument that the profit from the charges subsidises banking, you are getting your banking subsidised by other people. So, according to that argument, you're getting a free ride regardless of whether or not you pay extra for additional services. Which are also subsidised by other people, those who have been talked into paying for those services and don't use them (because they're of no use to most poeple).

The "free ride" argument doesn't hold up, because those who are making that argument are getting the free ride they're supposedly opposed to.

Angilion · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:23

meghatronic said:
Favour - an act of kindness beyond what is due

In what way is your definition countering my point?

meghatronic · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:25

Angilion said:
In what way is your definition countering my point?

It is a favour, by definition. As they are lending money that isn't yours.

growse · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:51

Angilion said:
According to the usual pro-charges argument that the profit from the charges subsidises banking, you are getting your banking subsidised by other people. So, according to that argument, you're getting a free ride regardless of whether or not you pay extra for additional services. Which are also subsidised by other people, those who have been talked into paying for those services and don't use them (because they're of no use to most poeple).

The "free ride" argument doesn't hold up, because those who are making that argument are getting the free ride they're supposedly opposed to.

So you would prefer a system where everyone paid cost price for their bank account and were allowed to borrow any money off the bank on a whim without any penalty at all?

CaptainComedy · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:52

this thread is full of propaganda ********.

the amount banks charge is unjustified. I asked to be denied money if it would put me overdrawn and the woman couldn't grasp the idea of me not wanting this "service" I don't want to go into minus figures, if it means not having that extra bit of money for the moment I really couldn't care less, I never accepted or wanted it. but for some reason nobody can contemplate such a request. brains explode, worlds collide and sheep fart.

Hatter The Mad · 26 Nov 2009 at 23:56

codec said:
this thread is full of propaganda ********.

the amount banks charge is unjustified. I asked to be denied money if it would put me overdrawn and the woman couldn't grasp the idea of me not wanting this "service" I don't want to go into minus figures, if it means not having that extra bit of money for the moment I really couldn't care less, I never accepted or wanted it. but for some reason nobody can contemplate such a request. brains explode, worlds collide and sheep fart.

See http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=15401762#post15401762

Dolph · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:04

codec said:
this thread is full of propaganda ********.

the amount banks charge is unjustified. I asked to be denied money if it would put me overdrawn and the woman couldn't grasp the idea of me not wanting this "service" I don't want to go into minus figures, if it means not having that extra bit of money for the moment I really couldn't care less, I never accepted or wanted it. but for some reason nobody can contemplate such a request. brains explode, worlds collide and sheep fart.

Stop using your debit card and direct debits, problem solved. It is the nature of these services that causes the problem.

Stretch · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:24

growse said:
So you would prefer a system where everyone paid cost price for their bank account and were allowed to borrow any money off the bank on a whim without any penalty at all?

No, I think he’s trying to say people deserved to be charged a "fair" amount for the services they use.

Dolph · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:26

Stretch said:
No, I think he’s trying to say people deserved to be charged a "fair" amount for the services they use.

They are, the fair amount is the amount determined by the market as part of the overall package.

meghatronic · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:27

Dolph said:
They are, the fair amount is the amount determined by the market as part of the overall package.

gambitt · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:42

Dolph said:
Stop using your debit card and direct debits, problem solved. It is the nature of these services that causes the problem.

Do you act obtusely on purpose or do you genuinely believe that what you have suggested is a potential solution?

CaptainComedy · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:45

Hatter The Mad said:
See http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=15401762#post15401762

I have an electron account and still get it.

Dolph said:
Stop using your debit card and direct debits, problem solved. It is the nature of these services that causes the problem.

if it's a service it should be able to be removed from the account. There is no reason to force the customer into having it. I'm pretty sure "unauthorised" overdraft means either one or both parties didn't authorise the money to go out.

if they are so willing to put this service onto me, how about getting an automated system to ring me up and confirm when a dd forces a unauthorised overdraft!?

meghatronic · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:46

codec said:
if they are so willing to put this service onto me, how about getting an automated system to ring me up and confirm when a dd forces a unauthorised overdraft!?

For free? lol.

Dolph · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:46

gambitt said:
Do you purposefully act obtusely or do you genuinely believe that what you have suggested is a potential solution?

It is the best solution to an inability to manage your finances correctly. The mechanisms used by debit cards and direct debits mean that if you live close to the limits of your account, there will be periods where you will go over, because (and this is very important) the mechanism does not exist to check your balance real time before accepting the payment request (as explained earlier by Hatter the mad). This is not a fault or a problem, it is the design of the system to serve the three parties involved in the best and fairest way, however it does introduce the problem of, at times, authorising payments over your limit, which then have to be honoured.

The alternative is to campaign for the system to be changed, but that will cost a lot of money and take a long time, and the vast majority are happy with the current setup.

Dolph · 27 Nov 2009 at 00:48

codec said:
I have an electron account and still get it.

Well, the rules on electron have been relaxed because customers complained about how restrictive the card was...

if it's a service it should be able to be removed from the account. There is no reason to force the customer into having it. I'm pretty sure "unauthorised" overdraft means either one or both parties didn't authorise the money to go out.

You've just been given the reason why...

if they are so willing to put this service onto me, how about getting an automated system to ring me up and confirm when a dd forces a unauthorised overdraft!?

How about they just remove DD facilities from your account if you can't manage the level of cash in their appropriately, as is common practice in some other countries?