Amature track car project - Advice needed

[NickXX]

Nah I get what you are saying and I understand that smaller lighter cars could run rings around a heavier, more powerful one but we don't necessarily need to be in the fastest car around the track. We just want something fun, something to learn in, and something that wouldn't be frustrating to drive.
I can see that I would need to learn these skills but would it be much harder to learn in a slightly faster car? I only ask because I am swaying more and more to a RWD BMW purely for the reason that I would like to master the driving technique I have honed in my everyday car...

And when you say M3/325 have high running costs, what do you regard as high? And will they be much higher than the average? We are not looking at competative racing or anything, just a couple guys running a car on weekends to have some fun in.

I think it's a good idea going for a RWD car given you've got your 325 already.

With regards to the high running costs of the M3, the problems I found was that even insurance to get the thing to the track days will be phenomenal, then you have more expensive brake consumables, you'll get through tyres quicker, and although rare, engine work will cost you a fortune.

You need to go in with the mindset of it being a hobby, not a competitive sport, otherwise when it comes to fixing things you might get put off it altogether. It is however down to how much you can justify spending on your hobbies, and although it will be expensive, there are enough e36 M3s out there being broken to just about get away with most things on the cheap.

I have personally gone for an e36 318iS. If my engine blows I can get a replacement one for under £200. If my gearbox goes, I can get a replacement for under £50. Even a new clutch kit is only £100!

I only gave a budget of 2-4k for the car because we didn't want to splurge too much on something that might not be worth it, as if the inevitable happens then it would be a waste... but I'm willing to increase the budget if it would be more sensible.

For reference, I started a thread VERY similar to yours three years ago. From that thread I did a few track days in my main car before going onto buy my track car. I have done about 10 track days in it now and don't regret it one bit.

Yeah true, maybe I should reconsider. You see, the thing is I'm not sure exaclty what to consider as we are both new to this sort of thing. Maybe I should take my 325 on a track day and see how it/I cope and then judge from there?

Definitely, definitely do this first. Try not to part with any cash until you've done at least 2-3 track days in it. You will have a much better idea of what you want from your track car.

But your point about running a lighter car with a decent set-up surely has to be compared to a more powerful car with a similarly decent set-up rather than just a more powerful car?

On a track day last weekend I kept up with an e36 M3 (280bhp) in my e36 318is (140bhp). The M3 was totally stock, but had tired suspension and he kept cooking the brakes. My 318iS has stock power, but coilover suspension and various other suspension refreshes. My point being that a well set up light car with little power can be not far off the pace of much more powerful stuff. A 318iS can be had for under a grand, an M3 can be had for around 3-4.


I guess my point is that power isn't everything, and remember that it is just a hobby. Shelling out hundreds of pounds needlessly on expensive repairs will put you off very quickly.

 

[NickXX]

Also, would you leave a bigger budget for modding and spend less on the car? Or vice versa?

I would personally aim to spend less on the car and mod it. A lot of these cars will have tired suspension, so will likely need a few tweaks over time.

One thing I quickly realised that maintaining and modifying the car quickly became another hobby. Gareth and I fitted the coilover suspension to my e36 over a bank holiday weekend. Very satisfying and saved a fortune

This is mine. The car cost originally me £800.

 

[SKILL]

Personally I'd go for the mk1 mr2 (although I am biased, owned/driven one for >4 years now...)

For your £2-4k budget you'd get the car, plus easily have enough for:
A set of Toyo R888's (~£75 a corner last time I looked, assuming stock wheels),
A Koni shocks/springs kit
Set of Whiteline ARB's
Brake upgrade (minimum being decent pads and braided hoses, they're good as stock but not sure how they'll cope to a days track abuse, there are several options for better discs/calipers though)

Which covers all the bases really, maybe add in a stainless exhaust (janspeed gets some more power, bloody loud though), the K&N doesn't seem worth it as it seems to lose power.

When you want/'need' more power there are various options, from a 20v 1.6l 4-pot that puts out ~165-170bhp with a ~9000rpm redline, the supercharged 1.6l which will do ~180-190bhp and a whole bucket load more torque, the 2l turbo from the mk2 for ~240bhp stock upto ~310bhp easily, and the 3l v6 from the camry (my preference if I had the cash) 'only' around 230bhp (before supercharging) but none of this turbo trash

Or go mad and fit a 4.2l audi v8 ¬_¬

 

[NVP]

I really do think some kind of experience day say http://www.palmersport.com/
But maybe something alittle cheaper lol, Will really help you in what you actually want on track.

Are these experience days worth it? I mean, do you get enough time to gauge the different cars? Or is it just rush, rush, get you in, get you out...?

A rear wheel drive car might be easier to work on as there'll be more space in the engine bay.
An E36 M3 will have a slip diff (LSD) too so ideal for track use. Thinking of consumables alone, tyres for an M3? £200/250? Tyres for a small hatch? £80? Pads? Discs? Engine/gearbox oil? I don't know what kind of wear usage you'd get but are you prepared to change the rears every other time you're on track? By far the biggest pain in the ass will be working on the car, so make sure you've got all the tooling you'll need, as well as some kind of lift or pit to work underneath it...
*snip*

Thanks for the break down of costs and the general information, I think we could afford to run an M3 or similar as we are sharing the costs and both have a fair amount of disposable income. Plus, as enthusiasts we are definately doing this as a hobby so I can't see us getting bored with the project.

*snip*

Cheers for all the info NickXX, it is very informative. I think I will definately take my car on a track day to see how it feels and how I cope with it's limits (although I'm a bit hesitant as I don't want to hurt her...). And like I said above, we will be doing this as a hobby to learn the workings of cars and so hopefully we will be fitting/repairing/maintaining the car ourselves. We plan to use this car as a starting/learning experience for future projects... hopefully.


I am running all this information past my friend and will return with his opinions as well. I should probably get him to join the OcUK community as he is the one who first took me to the OcUK shop/mini-room way back when we were at Uni.

Thanks for all the replies so far, they have been very helpful and have given me a lot to think about. I will keep you guys informed of all our decisions...

 

[Thomas. PLease.]

snip

Whats the 0-60 of these? I'm quite tempted by one myself, but a bit worried it'll feel a little underpowered. Are there any proven mods to up the power a touch?

I bet it is good fun to drive though. Whats the steering feel like as well?

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Remember, on a track day you are pushing a relatively tired car particularly hard. Its quite likely that something will give. Do you think you could swap a gearbox, or replace a clutch yourself? I would imagine that doing such work on a mk1 MR2 would be a lot easier than doing it on an M3.

If you're looking for a car that will be mighty quick on a track and have little work to do - how about something like this.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2007-VAUXHALL...tomobiles_UK?hash=item19b7c9a138#ht_500wt_975

Actually, ignore that crazy idea. I just really enjoyed driving one of them at the VXR track days. Was the fastest and most fun car around Brands.

 

[NickXX]

Are these experience days worth it? I mean, do you get enough time to gauge the different cars? Or is it just rush, rush, get you in, get you out...?


Thanks for the break down of costs and the general information, I think we could afford to run an M3 or similar as we are sharing the costs and both have a fair amount of disposable income. Plus, as enthusiasts we are definately doing this as a hobby so I can't see us getting bored with the project.


Cheers for all the info NickXX, it is very informative. I think I will definately take my car on a track day to see how it feels and how I cope with it's limits (although I'm a bit hesitant as I don't want to hurt her...). And like I said above, we will be doing this as a hobby to learn the workings of cars and so hopefully we will be fitting/repairing/maintaining the car ourselves. We plan to use this car as a starting/learning experience for future projects... hopefully.

I think the experience days are very limited to what you can get from them. They are mostly about being able to say that you've driven a Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari.

Your first few track days will always be quite slow, so it's unlikely you'll do any damage to your car. Get a bit of instruction as soon as you get out there (they're usually 15 min sessions for £15 or so) and just go from there really - the instruction just gives you a bit more confidence in your lines and braking zones.

Whats the 0-60 of these? I'm quite tempted by one myself, but a bit worried it'll feel a little underpowered. Are there any proven mods to up the power a touch?

I bet it is good fun to drive though. Whats the steering feel like as well?

On paper, the 0-60 isn't great (I don't even know what it is!) but it will hold its own up to about 70/80mph on the track. It is light enough to out corner and out brake most other cars, so all of the fun is in that. The main thing is that it's a very revvy little engine.

I have chipped mine which certainly helps things both across the rev range and at peak revs (£30 chip from the US!). I've also got a different exhaust - there isn't a magic fix to them. They do have forged internals though if you fancy some FI .

Steering wasn't great when I got it due to worn bushes, but since I've fitted coilovers and polybushed the front wishbones and rear trailing arm, it's made a world of a difference. Really has a lot of feel now (much more so than my e46 M3).

Remember, on a track day you are pushing a relatively tired car particularly hard. Its quite likely that something will give. Do you think you could swap a gearbox, or replace a clutch yourself? I would imagine that doing such work on a mk1 MR2 would be a lot easier than doing it on an M3.

If you're looking for a car that will be mighty quick on a track and have little work to do - how about something like this.

Actually, ignore that crazy idea. I just really enjoyed driving one of them at the VXR track days. Was the fastest and most fun car around Brands.

I've found the e36 very easy to work on and I'm nothing more than a keyboard mechanic

 

[ZG002]

I think the experience days are very limited to what you can get from them. They are mostly about being able to say that you've driven a Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari.

Granted a lot of them are. Palmer sport aint. You get to drive a big XKR jag thats been race preped.. So heavier RWD. A Caterham 7 super light. So light rwd. A clio cup racer. So light fwd and even a 911 stripped out so rwd rear engined. Then you have the JP1 and formula jag cars. You get about 6-8 laps in each at full chat with the instructors pushing you every step of the way. Expensive but he will defo come away with a much better idea of what he enjoyed and wants.

 

[PermaBanned]

I would personally aim to spend less on the car and mod it. A lot of these cars will have tired suspension, so will likely need a few tweaks over time.

One thing I quickly realised that maintaining and modifying the car quickly became another hobby. Gareth and I fitted the coilover suspension to my e36 over a bank holiday weekend. Very satisfying and saved a fortune

This is mine. The car cost originally me £800.

Is that an Alfa GTZ i see behind you? That would also be a good choice, worth less than £1k used and pretty quick to begin with.

 

[kaiowas]

Dont they have about 6? Which they race too? Threads called 'Diary of a track noob' or something. Worth a read.

We've 'only' got 3 (although I have scrapped 3 more of which various parts are still lying about in the garage) One of which is currently surplus to requirements and would make an ideal base for a track car

Threads are here:

Season 1
Season 2

 

[Dr Who]

Pretty much every car on your shortlist is on this video from Anglesey

 

[NickXX]

Is that an Alfa GTZ i see behind you? That would also be a good choice, worth less than £1k used and pretty quick to begin with.

Was an Alfa GTV V6. They're still pricey and very nose heavy.

Pretty much every car on your shortlist is on this video from Anglesey

Wow, I knew it was nice, but Anglesey looks superb. Will try to make a weekend of it next year.

 

[The_Dark_Side]

Golden rule.
Don't get BHP signs in your eyes and assume you needs lots of it to have fun.

 

[Dr Who]

It is a fairly basic circuit, raced it years ago in Karts, but still quite challenging, I like it.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Pretty much every car on your shortlist is on this video from Anglesey

205 GTI I thought you were driving a 7 the way you were taking everyone.

 

[PermaBanned]

I think he'd like to be...

 

[Dr Who]

205 GTI I thought you were driving a 7 the way you were taking everyone.

Not my car, but don't underestimate the 205 GTi, and that has an 8v not a 16v, with an MI16 engine they are mental!

 

[Kitchster_uk]

This is turning into a great thread - one of the reasons I like this forum so much. Really hope you get something sorted and that you can get on the track. I really do fancy another track-focused car. I want another crack at the 'ring - that was mad in a 1987 MR2!!!

 

[Dr Who]

Yup, it's nice to have a proper discussion in Motors for a change

 

[Leeum]

My mate's £800 Saxo VTR with cammed VTS engine transplant, bilstein suspension, quaife diff, 206 gti brakes etc. Awesome package for the money.