Switzerland appears to have backed minaret ban

[meghatronic]

As for French culture, they brought the values of the French revolution and the Enlightenment, not to mention great cuisine.

And language.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Seriously, a minaret isn't an "alien value" and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

You thought this referendum was over architecture? ROFL

This was simply cultural assertion by the indigenous population who don't want to live according to Islamic values because they find them abhorrent.

 

[Glaucus]

You are wrong. Maybe you should read up on democracy and its foundations in ancient Greece.

As Alexis de Tocqueville put it, democracy is simply the 'tyranny of the majority'.

so the basic principles of democracy are wrong are they? taht freedoms should not be overruled by majority rule.

That's racist. Why are treating all French people as one. That's really narrow-minded.

It's not racist I was just asking what you thought. If we look it's exactly wha you asked about Islam, which if you google is a lot. As i said it is a totally pointless question and unrelated. Islam counries also have great cuisine.

This was simply cultural assertion by the indigenous population who don't want to live according to Islamic values because they find them abhorrent.

again what values are being forced on to them by minarets

 

[jp_bl_68]

I don't understand. What's wrong with minarets?

 

[Vesta_Man]

I don't understand. What's wrong with minarets?

A lot if your fundamentally racist like a lot of the Swiss sadly are

 

[Pudney]

As for French culture, they brought the values of the French revolution and the Enlightenment, not to mention great cuisine.

Whereas Islam only pioneered in the fields of algebra, astronomy, medicine, the entire basis of modern physics and the scientific method, chemistry - just to name a few. You're right, their contribution has been worthless. Who needs the scientific method, only the reason that the advances in science are what they are...

 

[Pudney]

You thought this referendum was over architecture? ROFL

This was simply cultural assertion by the indigenous population who don't want to live according to Islamic values because they find them abhorrent.

No, this was a referendum by ignorant xenophobes who somehow think that part of a building can truly affect how a population behaves. Are you seriously telling me minarets have a mystical power to control people and convert everyone to the "evil" Islam. Tell me again, how does a minaret make people live by other values?

 

[Glaucus]

Whereas Islam only pioneered in the fields of algebra, astronomy, medicine, the entire basis of modern physics and the scientific method, chemistry - just to name a few. You're right, their contribution has been worthless. Who needs the scientific method, only the reason that the advances in science are what they are...

and loads more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_inventions

 

[Ivan Drago]

No, he is denouncing a morally reprehensible action taken by a people for no good reason other than blind xenophobia.

Xenophobia? Another blind slogan with no logic. Is it inconceivable to you that people would rather live according to certain values than according to others? Why won't you be prepared live in Saudi Arabia?

Actually yes. Islamic centres of learning were far superior in regards to higher mathematics, science, astronomy and more for countless centuries whilst European knowledge stagnated..

Maths was taken from Asia long before Islam was ever 'created' and astronomy built on the Greek works. Islam as a religion only stifled astronomy and science just like Christianity - ask Galileo.

 

[Glaucus]

Xenophobia? Another blind slogan with no logic. Is it inconceivable to you that people would rather live according to certain values than according to others? Why won't you be prepared live in Saudi Arabia?

Again what values are those then?

Maths was taken from Asia long before Islam was ever 'created' and astronomy built on the Greek works. Islam as a religion only stifled astronomy and science just like Christianity - ask Galileo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_inventions

You remember when you said

without having any solid logic to back up your name calling but this won't wash for much longer. People like you will be made to engage in logical debate and your ideology will cave in.

 

[Pudney]

Xenophobia? Another blind slogan with no logic. Is it inconceivable to you that people would rather live according to certain values than according to others? Why won't you be prepared live in Saudi Arabia?

Actually I'd quite happily live in Saudi Arabia, as long as I have air conditioning in my home but that's more to do with the climate than culture. Shouldn't you ask me first before assuming I wouldn't?

And it's not a blind slogan, it's based on many things and not just relating to this event. Also relates to their treatment of other Europeans who have exactly the same culture as them. They don't like outsiders, fits rather well into the definition of xenophobia.

Maths was taken from Asia long before Islam was ever 'created' and astronomy built on the Greek works. Islam as a religion only stifled astronomy and science just like Christianity - ask Galileo.

That has no basis in historical fact as during the period you refer Islamic centres of learning were regarded around the world as places of innovation. Seriously, do you ever back up any of your claims or just say the first thing that appears? Also ignoring the simple fact that any advance in maths since Asia has no merit. Does that mean Pythagoras did sod all for maths by your logic?

 

[Dist]

I'm not going to get into the argument but all I want to say is that my opinion on the matter is that if the if the majority think the country is better off without minarets then so be it, it is their country. If the minority think minarets are that important then they can always choose to live elsewhere, but IMO, having the right to vote on such matters is much more an important reason for staying, than being denied the right to build a minaret is a reason to leave.

Why should the minority get special treatment? if the majority dont want minarets then they shouldn't have to put up with them.

Now I do think there are limits though. Such as some countries may think that taxes are bad, and the majority could vote against having taxes, which would ruin the country. Minarets serve no practicle application though, and when it comes down to decoration I see no reason why the people who live in the country shouldn't get a choice about how they would prefer their country to look.

 

[Chimerical]

But becuase I'm fed of of religious bullcrap being rubbed in my face and being told I'll burn for eternity becuase I have a greater understanding of the natural processes by which we formed.

Victim complex. Religion is rarely shoved down people's throats in this country. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to read the Bible, so where the hell is the problem?

Far worse things are branded into our minds every day.

Yes there are faith-based schools (I attended a Catholic primary and secondary) but it is still the parent's choice whether they send their kids there at least.

Why should the minority get special treatment? if the majority dont want minarets then they shouldn't have to put up with them.

Read the thread. Its been explained why already.

 

[Tefal]

I'm not going to get into the argument but all I want to say is that my opinion on the matter is that if the if the majority think the country is better off without minarets then so be it, it is their country. If the minority think minarets are that important then they can always choose to live elsewhere, but IMO, having the right to vote on such matters is much more an important reason for staying, than being denied the right to build a minaret is a reason to leave.

Why should the minority get special treatment? if the majority dont want minarets then they shouldn't have to put up with them.

Now I do think there are limits though. Such as some countries may think that taxes are bad, and the majority could vote against having taxes, which would ruin the country. Minarets serve no practicle application though, and when it comes down to decoration I see no reason why the people who live in the country shouldn't get a choice about how they would prefer their country to look.

SO if the majority think it's right to ban homosexuality, would you agree that it should become law?

 

[Dist]

SO if the majority think it's right to ban homosexuality, would you agree that it should become law?

No, becaus homosexuality is something important, not just decoration. I see the vote for/against minarets as being no different from a vote on what colour the carpet should be in Buckingham palace. I don't consider the general public to have the knowledge to vote on anything imporant, thankfully mosques with or without minarets makes no real difference, only decoration as i mentioned.

 

[Glaucus]

and laws should not interfere with such choices. Laws should be based on facts and problems.
If it is a matter of decoration why ban it?

 

[Ivan Drago]

Again what values are those then?

The freedom of speech, rights of women, democracy etc. These values that you think are 'normal' came at a price when many generations fought and died for them.

If you want to live under an Islamic theocracy......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_inventions

Again, Islam only stiffled science like all religion. While people who lived in Islamic societies built on the works of cultures which Islam conquered and even produced their own works, it was not BECAUSE of Islam.

The Persians would have been far better off as Zorastrians as opposed to Muslims.

Actually I'd quite happily live in Saudi Arabia

I would bet you my PC that you wouldn't. You wouldn't even be allowed into Mecca being an infidel.

Also relates to their treatment of other Europeans who have exactly the same culture as them. They don't like outsiders, fits rather well into the definition of xenophobia.

There is an element of truth to that in certain parts of Switzerland but Europe is very liberal by global standards. East Asia is far more 'xenophobic' than anywhere in Europe - same goes for the rest of the world. Far from being the exception, 'xenophobia' is the norm in the world - they just don't talk about that in the MSM. Japan and China are reknowned for hating non-indigenous people - just look at their immigration policy compared to ours and the way they have shops where no foreigners are allowed.

Also ignoring the simple fact that any advance in maths since Asia has no merit. Does that mean Pythagoras did sod all for maths by your logic?

I have given credit where it's due (see above comments). Pythagoras was a Greek and I have given props to their culture numerous times already.

 

[Pudney]

I would bet you my PC that you wouldn't. You wouldn't even be allowed into Mecca being an infidel.

Why would I want to go into Mecca? Seriously, what would really affect me. No drinking, having sex in public. Can live with that, not big on it anyway. I can't think of a single thing I do in public that I couldn't in Saudi Arabia. In private I can still drink, have a girlfriend with arms and legs exposed. So what real impact would it have? Aside from the climate which I'd hate, but again that's not cultural and I'm sure the point you're trying to make isn't that I hate the hot weather.

There is an element of truth to that in certain parts of Switzerland but Europe is very liberal by global standards. East Asia is far more 'xenophobic' than anywhere in Europe - same goes for the rest of the world. Far from being the exception, 'xenophobia' is the norm in the world - they just don't talk about that in the MSM. Japan and China are reknowned for hating non-indigenous people - just look at their immigration policy compared to ours and the way they have shops where no foreigners are allowed.

Yes, Japan and China are. As are many other nations. Yet that doesn't change the fact the Swiss are as well.

I have given credit where it's due (see above comments). Pythagoras was a Greek and I have given props to their culture numerous times already.

So basically, if you're Asian or European you're allowed credit to your inventions, but if you're Islamic then you just stole it off someone else? Your reasoning is baffling quite frankly.

 

[Glaucus]

The freedom of speech, rights of women, democracy etc. These values that you think are 'normal' came at a price when many generations fought and died for them.

If you want to live under an Islamic theocracy......

What has people dying for my rights got to do with anything? Those who faught in teh wars would be disgusted with the meaning behind what you have written. They fought for freedom, not to deny the minoritys or a single group.

Who is saying anything about Islamic theocracy. This is about minarets. Not ban on Islam, not reduction of immigrants or any thing else. I will say again what values are these minarets opposing on anyone like you suggest?

Again, Islam only stiffled science like all religion. While people who lived in Islamic societies built on the works of cultures which Islam conquered and even produced their own works, it was not BECAUSE of Islam.

wrong Islam provided money for such studies. As I said before you asked the question and it is a totally pointless one with no relevance

Your arguments are none logical and you keep skipping relevant points. .

 

[Ivan Drago]

I can't think of a single thing I do in public that I couldn't in Saudi Arabia..

How about criticising the government? If you took your wife or daughter out there, they would be required to cover their bodies, not be allowed to drive in certain places and assume certain restricted roles. They would be protected only under Sharia law (i.e. they could be raped legitimately under some cicrcumstances). I doubt you could get a job very easily unless you could worm your way into the oil business and you would be living in a walled compound to protect your from the citizens who don't like having infidels on 'holy' soil.

Those who faught in teh wars would be disgusted with the meaning behind what you have written. They fought for freedom, not to deny the minoritys or a single group..

They fought for THEIR freedom - that of Western Christian society. They did NOT fight so they could live under/in parallel with Islamic values.

I will say again what values are these minarets opposing on anyone like you suggest?.

As I said before, this is nothing to do with architecture. The building of minarets, bar disturbing people with prayer calls, is not changing people by force but it is forcing people live beside a culture which they dislike and they were never asked.