Was jesus born on december 25th?

[Nitefly]

How can you respect an opinion that pimps the idea that some kind of ghost oversees all that we do. It's just laughable, and laugh I do.

I might well find it odd or amusing on some level, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be respectful when voicing my opinion in front of those who might think differently.

 

[TheMightyTen]

IIRC wasn't Christmas banned in England at one stage as it was a pagan celebration?

The pagan element is now felt to be a minor issue with modern scholars. Legislation was introduced by the 'Godly' party within parliament during the 1640s. This is often attributed to Cromwell banning Christmas but he didn't directly introduce the clamp down (although as a Puritan he was obviously sympathetic and did order the army to enforce it under the Protectorate). The legislation wasn't just directly aimed at Christmas it was felt that all Saints feast days and Easter were Roman and Popish and should be removed for that reason. It had very little effect away from the larger population centres as Christmas carried on how it had throughout the late late 16th and early 17th Centuries.

 

[Participant]

I might well find it odd or amusing on some level, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be respectful when voicing my opinion in front of those who might think differently.

So you automatically respect anything that someone else believes?

You 'just go right ahead and respect' anything that others hold true, no matter how ridiculous?

Respect has just become a word for not telling imbeciles what you really think.

 

[RDM]

Either way, out of all you people who know and acknowledge that Christmas is a false occasion, why do you celebrate it? For those of you who think it IS to do with Christ, but aren't religious, then why (if you do) do you celebrate Christmas?

Because a midwinter celebration when nights are longest, days are shortest and everything is a bit grey and grim is not necessarily a bad thing. A ready made excuse for relaxing, spending time with friends and family, overindulging and generally enjoying yourself is no bad thing. And as everyone else is also doing the same it makes it easier to organise stuff around that time.

I personally don't understand the "its a time to spend with the family" arguement as if anything, it causes so much strain on families to get so many presents etc,

Depends on the family, ours has always been pretty relaxed about it all and see it all as a bit of fun.

and of course, what stops you doing this at other times? Why do you need an "occasion" to buy the people you love gifts and to sit and enjoy time with them?

Well for a start we don't really have much of a gift giving culture in the UK and as everyone is celebrating at the same time it makes it much easier to organise things together.

 

[Nitefly]

So you automatically respect anything that someone else believes?

You 'just go right ahead and respect' anything that others hold true, no matter how ridiculous?

Respect has just become a word for not telling imbeciles what you really think.

Of course I don't - my response is dynamic. If somebody if telling me that 'I will burn in hell' or forcing their own viewpoint upon me, then I will be more inclined to disagree or debate with them. If however somebody is more placid in their beliefs and does not force them upon me, then I have no incentive to force mine upon them when it hardly matters who is right or wrong.

For instance, I didn't stand up in the middle of 'all things bright and beautiful' at my great grandmother's funeral to announce my disagreement with the lyrics!

 

[Burnsy2023]

Respect has just become a word for not telling imbeciles what you really think.

You seem to think respect is about being arrogant and telling people that your beliefs are better then theirs, because you're belief in atheism is no more scientific then theirs nor any more than an opinion.

 

[Glaucus]

Rant!

Jesus in the context of the holy trinity, turning water into wine, etc. was never born. That's my point. Anyone can say that someone called Jesus was in fact born, but that's not much use really is it. For all you and I know the bible refers to many different blokes that ended up being lumped into one guy called Jesus. Or many different blokes all called Jesus.

Whatever it is, it's all folk stories, wives' tales, hocus pocus, and ridiculous bull****.

Actually there's a fare bit suggesting he was a real person. whether he could turn water into wine or any of the other stuff is not what you should be concentrating on. As this makes no difference to the question was he born.

Right so the burden of proof falls on the sceptical rather than those that are purveying the view of some kind of mystical ghost being the reason for our existence? In that case, I wish to put forward the view that I am in fact a deity. If you can't prove otherwise, it must be true!!!

No, many of us think he existed, but don't think he could turn water in to wine or was the son of God.. You our confusing many different things and jumping to wrong conclusion on nothing but opinion. despite several texts talking about the person as being factual. This is regardless of whether you think he is a normal man or the son of God.

 

[Kohaashi]

Can't say I want to sit and read such a long thread, but I've seen comments of the alligning with the pagan festival, something to do with the sun? That's true from what I know, so it's a completely unchristian celebration. The Bible gives us ideas that it was a warmish period of time, Spring maybe, and that the Winters were extremely cold.. but doesn't mention a date or time, because it's not deemed relevant. In fact the Bible only really tells us to celebrate his death.. IIRC wasn't Christmas banned in England at one stage as it was a pagan celebration?

Either way, out of all you people who know and acknowledge that Christmas is a false occasion, why do you celebrate it? For those of you who think it IS to do with Christ, but aren't religious, then why (if you do) do you celebrate Christmas?

I personally don't understand the "its a time to spend with the family" arguement as if anything, it causes so much strain on families to get so many presents etc, and of course, what stops you doing this at other times? Why do you need an "occasion" to buy the people you love gifts and to sit and enjoy time with them?

If I have said anything to offend anyone, I apologise in advance..

Amen

 

[Glaucus]

Either way, out of all you people who know and acknowledge that Christmas is a false occasion, why do you celebrate it? For those of you who think it IS to do with Christ, but aren't religious, then why (if you do) do you celebrate Christmas?

Does it matter why it was started? Or does the meaning matter more. It's the meaning that Christians celebrate.

Why do I celebrate it, because it is a time nearly everyone has of work and is to be spent with the family and get together.

 

[Kohaashi]

Slightly OT ...

I bet you say bless you to people when they sneeze. Why if you don't believe in god? Etc. blah blah blah.

My understanding of the 'Bless you' thing when you sneeze, was a false teaching that your soul can be thrown from your body when you sneeze, that sneezing otherwise opened your body to invasion by the Devil or evil spirits, or that sneezing was your body's effort to force out an invading evil spirit. Thus, "bless you" or "God bless you" is used as a sort of shield against evil.

However, since this is based on a superstition, true christians should not practice it and should be free of superstitions. Same for the whole "touch wood" or "throwing salt over the shoulder" type things. All these things are traced back to ancient worship of non-christian gods and non-christian religious practices.

 

[Angilion]

Rant!

Jesus in the context of the holy trinity, turning water into wine, etc. was never born. That's my point. Anyone can say that someone called Jesus was in fact born, but that's not much use really is it. For all you and I know the bible refers to many different blokes that ended up being lumped into one guy called Jesus. Or many different blokes all called Jesus.

Whatever it is, it's all folk stories, wives' tales, hocus pocus, and ridiculous bull****.

Just to clarify - there's no way anyone called Jesus was born in Judea ~2000 years ago. Jesus is an Anglicised form of a transliterated Greek name.

It might all have been written by someone else to gain power. Religion is a good way to gain power.

It might all have been a drug-fueled hallucination by a charismatic preacher who convinced other people to believe it.

It might all have been sleep paralysis for aforementioned charismatic preacher.

It might have been snowballing misunderstanding by people eager for a new religion. A man with herblore treats a wound. A week later and word is spreading about the holy man miraculously healing the sick in <insert town here>? Monty Python's scene with the miracles of the sandal and the juniper berries is an exaggeration but with a sound basis.

Or all of the above.

Or the most ridiculous possibility of them all - it might be true.

 

[MookJong]

Good will to all men and eat drink and be merry is all you need to know.

Now go and enjoy yourself....

 

[Sankari]

Just to clarify - there's no way anyone called Jesus was born in Judea ~2000 years ago. Jesus is an Anglicised form of a transliterated Greek name.

Correct. He would have been called Yehoshua.

It might all have been written by someone else to gain power. Religion is a good way to gain power.

All the historical evidence militates against this theory. Christians were the least powerful people in the Roman empire for at least two three decades after Christianity first emerged and spent most of that time being violently persecuted. Christianity certainly wasn't started as a power grab.

 

[ScoobyDoo69]

Just curious.

You wouldnt be a Jehovah Witness would you?

Yeah I am.. wasn't brought up as one, and Christmas has always been something that baffled me..

There are many traditions that are born out of religious roots.

That does not mean that the participants sympathise with the undertones of the event.

So why celebrate them..? Why celebrate and get involved in something you don't believe in?

I bet you say bless you to people when they sneeze. Why if you don't believe in god? Etc. blah blah blah.

Same reason people say "only God knows.." when they don't believe in God?? You tell me lol, I don't say bless you.

For me the Christmas period is traditionally a period for the family to get together and eat, drink, socialise, exchange gifts, have lots of parties, and welcome in the new year. It doesn't cause any strain on my family - not sure what you mean by this? And my particular family does these things at other times of the year (apart from welcome in the new year!) - what makes you think that just because Christmas is a time when people do these things, that they do not also do them at other times of the year?

I even got married in a church, knowing full well in my own mind that there is no such thing as god. The reason I did this is because my wife wanted to, and it seemed like a nice place to formalise things.

Fair enough mate, with no disrespect I can't see why you'd want to get married in a church if you're not inclined to religion in the slightest, but it's a nice place. Seems kinda hypocritical.

With regards to the strain on the family, I don't mean everyone. But there are so many people who stretch themselves so much as the Christmas time to buy gifts, and yet don't celebrate "the meaning behind Christmas" so it just seems a bit strange to do so? Also a lot of families don't do anything throughout the year, so Christmas (which they don't celebrate the meaning) is the only time they give gifts.

It's an odd concept to me

 

[Mr^B]

So people are hypocritical because they aren't religious and don't celebrate ONE of the meanings of a not-particularly-religious festival?

Seems perfectly logical to me.

Most people aren't religious, and most people treat Christmas as some extra time off of work, giving presents, meeting up with family, etc. I fail to find the hypocrisy in that.

He already said that he wanted to get married in a church because that's what his wife wanted to do. Again that seems logical to me, and ironically thinking of other people ahead of yourself seems to be more of a religious statement than saying "no, I'd prefer a registry office because someone on an internet forum might incorrectly call me a hypocrite".

And how, exactly, is Christmas an odd concept to you? Don't you attend the Memorial service? Go to one of the big gatherings (Norwich, etc...)? That's the same thing, people meet up get together and have an "up-building experience". Same dog, different fleas.

I've found it common amongst JWs to claim that they don't understand why people celebrate Christmas and it smacks me of being a little bit too "forced", as in they DO understand, and probably want to join in because they can see (in general) how happy it makes people - and can't really find a good reason to NOT celebrate it apart from the fact that it's one of the "things" that JWs do (or don't do in this case) to differentiate themselves for other sects of Christendom.

 

[ScoobyDoo69]

So people are hypocritical because they aren't religious and don't celebrate ONE of the meanings of a not-particularly-religious festival?

Seems perfectly logical to me.

Most people aren't religious, and most people treat Christmas as some extra time off of work, giving presents, meeting up with family, etc. I fail to find the hypocrisy in that.

He already said that he wanted to get married in a church because that's what his wife wanted to do. Again that seems logical to me, and ironically thinking of other people ahead of yourself seems to be more of a religious statement than saying "no, I'd prefer a registry office because someone on an internet forum might incorrectly call me a hypocrite".

And how, exactly, is Christmas an odd concept to you? Don't you attend the Memorial service? Go to one of the big gatherings (Norwich, etc...)? That's the same thing, people meet up get together and have an "up-building experience". Same dog, different fleas.

I've found it common amongst JWs to claim that they don't understand why people celebrate Christmas and it smacks me of being a little bit too "forced", as in they DO understand, and probably want to join in because they can see (in general) how happy it makes people - and can't really find a good reason to NOT celebrate it apart from the fact that it's one of the "things" that JWs do (or don't do in this case) to differentiate themselves for other sects of Christendom.

Christmas is an odd concept because you don't see people who aren't Muslim celebrating Ramadan (sp?) or other such things do you? So why Christmas? People on a whole don't celebrate things they don't believe in, yet Christmas is celebrated by a lot of religions in this country, because it "fits" hence why I think it's a bit hypocritical.

The memorial service is to celebrate Christ's death - as stipulated in the Bible.

The gatherings, or assemblies or what have you are not celebrations in any way, it's just like a big meeting.

Christmas isn't celebrated because it isn't said in the Bible to be celebrated, if it was, then it would be.

If you base your religion on scriptures, then you would do as they do and don't say right? So JWs are not celebrating Christmas etc, because it doesn't say to, it's not to be different, it's just to stick with what the Bible teaches..

 

[RDM]

Christmas is an odd concept because you don't see people who aren't Muslim celebrating Ramadan (sp?) or other such things do you? So why Christmas? People on a whole don't celebrate things they don't believe in, yet Christmas is celebrated by a lot of religions in this country, because it "fits" hence why I think it's a bit hypocritical.

Because we are historically a Christian country and so the celebrations when people get time off are Christian. Because there has been a festival at this time of year for quite a long time, well before Christianity came here. Because having a festival when the days are shortest, the nights longest and it is generally a bit grim is actually a nice idea. Because it is the time in this country when everyone gets time off so makes it an ideal time to get together even if you aren't religous.

For me, being agnostic, it is a good time to celebrate because the time of year is otherwise a bit grim and everyone else has time off. Why not have a celebration?

Christmas isn't celebrated because it isn't said in the Bible to be celebrated, if it was, then it would be.

If you base your religion on scriptures, then you would do as they do and don't say right? So JWs are not celebrating Christmas etc, because it doesn't say to, it's not to be different, it's just to stick with what the Bible teaches..

But the Christian Bible is in no way an instruction manual on how to live your life. It has nothing to say on a huge number of things. There is no scripture saying you shouldn't celebrate Christmas either.

 

[mollymoo]

Christmas is an odd concept because you don't see people who aren't Muslim celebrating Ramadan (sp?) or other such things do you? So why Christmas? People on a whole don't celebrate things they don't believe in, yet Christmas is celebrated by a lot of religions in this country, because it "fits" hence why I think it's a bit hypocritical.

The memorial service is to celebrate Christ's death - as stipulated in the Bible.

The gatherings, or assemblies or what have you are not celebrations in any way, it's just like a big meeting.

Christmas isn't celebrated because it isn't said in the Bible to be celebrated, if it was, then it would be.

If you base your religion on scriptures, then you would do as they do and don't say right? So JWs are not celebrating Christmas etc, because it doesn't say to, it's not to be different, it's just to stick with what the Bible teaches..

So as a Jehovahs Witness do you celebrate anything at all?

 

[TheMightyTen]

Hmm, Scripture literalism

Why me, Lord? Where have I gone wrong? I've always been nice to
people. I don't drink or dance or swear. I've even kept Kosher just to
be on the safe side. I've done everything the bible says, even the
stuff that contradicts the other stuff.

 

[cman]

Christmas is an odd concept because you don't see people who aren't Muslim celebrating Ramadan (sp?) or other such things do you? So why Christmas? People on a whole don't celebrate things they don't believe in, yet Christmas is celebrated by a lot of religions in this country, because it "fits" hence why I think it's a bit hypocritical.

The memorial service is to celebrate Christ's death - as stipulated in the Bible.

The gatherings, or assemblies or what have you are not celebrations in any way, it's just like a big meeting.

Christmas isn't celebrated because it isn't said in the Bible to be celebrated, if it was, then it would be.

If you base your religion on scriptures, then you would do as they do and don't say right? So JWs are not celebrating Christmas etc, because it doesn't say to, it's not to be different, it's just to stick with what the Bible teaches..

If JWs aren't celebrating Christmas because it's not done in the Bible, why the hell are they spouting all the nonsense about the Watchtower society...
Seen that in the Bible somewhere... NO! Bunch of deceived people.