London's Jewish 'Police' Groups - Vigilantes?

[RimBlock]

Difficult one....

Police are slow to respond so now the community have a group who will.

No physical contact, presumabily unless the criminal attacks them first.

The main concern is failure to engage the police when forming this 'policing' group, discriminating membership based on religion.

Sure, Golders Green and areas in Hackney have large Jewish populations but they are not the only religious groups in those areas.

What happens if Christians want to help protect the same community area as well following the Jewish example. What happens if one party in an argument calls the Christian group and the other calls the Jewish group. At best we are going to end up with a very boring religious debate, at worst ... here comes the crusades.

Would people be as happy having the same sort of groups but made up of only Muslims, Sekhs, Christians, Atheists, Evangelists or Hari Khrishna .

If religion is ok then why not groups based on nationality. Only British, Indians, Greeks, Italians, Irish or even French .

Don't need another BNP or IRA.....

Seeing a buddhist only group would be interesting though .

RB

 

[Richdog]

ANy community raising vigilanti groups is wrong, but we have to look at why they feel the need to. This community saw a need and they did it, if they are still being allowed to run it and their motives are true then fairplay. Otherwise, the police need to stfu and shut them down... they know where their helplines and headquarters are so what's the delay?

This is just so wrong. The reason they don't want their community dealing with the normal police is because they are a bunch of anti-gentiles who hate non-Jews.

Sorry... who hates who? Sentences like that show me you are another typical OCUK hatemonger, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

If they didn't see a need to do it then I'm sure they wouldn't.
As said, it isn't a gang of people with flaming torches and pitchforks...

If they are deterring crime any, or catching those responsible. Fair play to them.

 

[Sankari]

Tbh, anything that keeps Teki off the streets can only be good for Britain.

 

[Swi1ch]

I'm surprised at the amount of people who aren't sure or disagree with this. Seems like a great idea to me. They're actively doing something to protect the community and should be commended for it. If I had someone responding in 40 seconds when the yobs outside are throwing bricks around I'd feel a hell of a lot better, rather than the 3 hours it takes for the Police to respond.

And if they're actually handing over three to five suspects a week, seems like they're single handedly beating the force's solve rate.

 

[scorza]

There is a similar scheme in Swindon with Christian Pastors who go out every friday and Saturday night and help people get home safely, break up fights hand out flipflops to drunken girls who can no longer walk in high heels (3000 pairs in 2 years!!). They assist the police with witness statements etc. The local police support this.

Damn them! If only we could ban all religions the world would be a better place

There have been a couple of instances of private police forces being set up in the UK recently, residents of a well-to-do Southampton street decided to pay for one after being let down by the police so often. In an ideal this would never be necessary but when you have a police force that's more interested in transparency, inclusiveness and sustainability than actual policing it's always going to happen. On the face of it, this is just another private police force however it is of great concern that their members are exclusively made up of one minority group. Zionism in the UK? I know I definitely wouldn't be happy with a Muslim-only private police force patrolling the streets of Bradford, Luton or any other British city.

 

[Dolph]

Sounds great to me, it's nice to see some groups finally showing a bit of independence and responsibility rather than sitting there and whinging to the state...

 

[Sankari]

On the face of it, this is just another private police force

No it's not.

however it is of great concern that their members are exclusively made up of one minority group.

Why? They're offering to help everyone, so what's the big deal? I don't know why you're discriminating against them.

Zionism in the UK?

Eh? They're Orthodox Jews; a group with a consistent history of rejecting Zionism. You do know what Zionism is, right?

I know I definitely wouldn't be happy with a Muslim-only private police force patrolling the streets of Bradford, Luton or any other British city.

Apples vs oranges. Viva la difference.

 

[scorza]

No it's not.

In what way does it differ? It's a first-response police force that is not a public service, ergo it looks and smells like a private police force.

Why? They're offering to help everyone, so what's the big deal? I don't know why you're discriminating against them.

From the article: "To join the London Shomrim, members must be Jewish, male and married". Sounds like this organisation violates some sort of equality laws, wonder if Trevor Phillips will go after these the way he went after the BNP.

Eh? They're Orthodox Jews; a group with a consistent history of rejecting Zionism. You do know what Zionism is, right?

Not spent much time in London's Orthodox Jewish communities have you? Trust me, you'll see plenty of Israel flags round Stamford Hill.

I think it's only one branch within Jewish Orthodoxy that opposes Zionism - the creation of a Jewish state these days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

 

[wordy]

Why? They're offering to help everyone, so what's the big deal? I don't know why you're discriminating against them.

If they're offering to help people regardless of religion then they should let people join, regardless of religion.

I respect that they want to help their communities, but I'm willing to bet there are people of other religious denominations in that community who would want to do the same.

 

[drunkenmaster]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/justice-on-londons-streets-the-jewish-way-1857591.html


This is just so wrong. The reason they don't want their community dealing with the normal police is because they are a bunch of anti-gentiles who hate non-Jews. To make things worse, the Jewish Conservative MP is quoted backing them up over the police commissioner!

Vigilante groups - good or bad?

meh, they are doing it right and helping, nothing wrong with that.

While this government devalues our police service and turns them into a pile of useless poo, we need all the help we can get.

Simple fact is every year for a long time policing has gotten worse, over the two decades I can remember we've had to call police out, for two burglaries at our house, 2-3 friends getting mugged and needing help, house alarms with dodgey goings on around the house needing immediate attention, stolen cars, vandalism....... not once, including many fast response requiring situations have the police managed to get there within hours. This is over 20 years, and the incidents are pretty few and far between, but our area has always had policing number issues which have only gotten worse every year and become comical at best lately.

The governments idea is to keep hiring larger amounts of far less qualified staff with less power on less money, who aren't actually allowed to do their job nor are trained properly to do the job if they were allowed to.

Beaurocracy, the thing that will seemingly eventually make every single public service completely and utterly useless.

 

[RimBlock]

Why? They're offering to help everyone, so what's the big deal? I don't know why you're discriminating against them.

But they are refusing to let anyone apart from Jews join and also help.

Why can a Christian not join to help make the shared community safer.

They argue that due to cutural differences the Jewish communuity may not want to call the police. What about people who are not Jewish and cultural difficulties calling them.

The members are listed as exclusively Orthadox Jews who 'recruit' others to join them. These recruits have to be Jewish.

Why can no other religions be allowed to help smooth cultural barriers and protect their community along with the Shomrim group ?

The underlying problem is of course the police force and the allocation / lack of resources to properly cover their areas of responsibility.

Apples vs oranges. Viva la difference.

Why is a Muslim group along the same lines significantly different ?

What other religious group would be a reasonible comparison. A Taoist group ?

RB

 

[drunkenmaster]

If they're offering to help people regardless of religion then they should let people join, regardless of religion.

I respect that they want to help their communities, but I'm willing to bet there are people of other religious denominations in that community who would want to do the same.

If another sensible group also wants to help reduce crime, whats the issue, because they are different religions and wear a different uniform, respectful and non violent people will just clash for the sake of it?

Its highly likely that certain people can get certain information much more easily, and several groups who were willing to work with each other and share information could be far more effective.

As long as its sensible people who don't step over the line, have a hundred groups all trying to find the people responsible for the crime, more numbers with different sources of information is better than a single limited group.

 

[drunkenmaster]

But they are refusing to let anyone apart from Jews join and also help.

Why can a Christian not join to help make the shared community safer.

They argue that due to cutural differences the Jewish communuity may not want to call the police. What about people who are not Jewish and cultural difficulties calling them.

But if there were a lot of say, muslims, christians and buddists in the group that make certain people unwilling to help them with their inquiries, doesn't that make the group less effective.

its their group, its not a publically run service, its not paid for by tax, they can do whatever the hell they want. Maybe the people running it feel more comftable with their own people involved and simply wouldn't want to keep the service going with any old people in it. The fact is its helping people, no one should be against that.

I don't see them stopping other groups of people trying to help their own communities, why should they or would they.

 

[Sankari]

In what way does it differ? It's a first-response police force that is not a public service, ergo it looks and smells like a private police force.

Please tell me in what way it's a police force? Are they arresting anyone? No. Are they apprehending anyone? No. Are they breaking the law? No. They're doing no more than a conscientious Neighbourhood Watch group would do.

From the article: "To join the London Shomrim, members must be Jewish, male and married". Sounds like this organisation violates some sort of equality laws, wonder if Trevor Phillips will go after these the way he went after the BNP.

I think you'll find that certain ethnic organisations enjoy the freedom to restrict their membership. Phone your local Polish Club and ask them how many of their members are Czech. If they say "None", demand to know why.

Not spent much time in London's Orthodox Jewish communities have you? Trust me, you'll see plenty of Israel flags round Stamford Hill.

Yep, plenty of double standards in the Orthodox community.

I think it's only one branch within Jewish Orthodoxy that opposes Zionism - the creation of a Jewish state these days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

Nope, there are Hasidic groups who reject it as well.

In any case, it's completely academic. Zionism was created by 19th Century secular Jews for the purpose of re-creating the Jewish state. That goal was achieved in 1948. Consequently, Zionism has been a defunct ideology for at least 6 decades. So... why the Zionist comment? It's completely meaningless and totally irrelevant.

Anyway, why would you be worried about people who believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist? I'd be more worried about the people who believe it doesn't have a right to exist. They're the ones who bombed London's Underground.

 

[Sankari]

If they're offering to help people regardless of religion then they should let people join, regardless of religion.

I respect that they want to help their communities, but I'm willing to bet there are people of other religious denominations in that community who would want to do the same.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Sankari]

But they are refusing to let anyone apart from Jews join and also help.

They're not stopping anyone else from helping. They're simply restricting the membership of their own organisation. And as I've already stated, I think this restriction is a bad idea. It conjures up images of the dangerous isolationism that we've come to expect from Muslim communities.

Why can a Christian not join to help make the shared community safer.

No reason that I can see.

They argue that due to cutural differences the Jewish communuity may not want to call the police. What about people who are not Jewish and cultural difficulties calling them.

Well, that's their choice, isn't it? They can always call the police instead.

The members are listed as exclusively Orthadox Jews who 'recruit' others to join them. These recruits have to be Jewish.

Why can no other religions be allowed to help smooth cultural barriers and protect their community along with the Shomrim group ?

No reason that I can see. Sounds like a good idea to me.

The underlying problem is of course the police force and the allocation / lack of resources to properly cover their areas of responsibility.

Yep.

Why is a Muslim group along the same lines significantly different ?

Because people tend to feel very differently about the Muslim community. There's a widespread mistrust due to an unjustified perception that all Muslims are sympathetic to terrorism and extremism.

What other religious group would be a reasonible comparison. A Taoist group ?

RB

Yep, or Buddhist. Or any other community which has existed peacefully in the UK for centuries.

 

[stockhausen]

I wonder what people's reaction would be if similar "vigilante" organisations were to be set up in Bradford, Birmingham, Leicester or Luton by devout Muslims or even somewhere in Essex by members of the British Nazi Party

 

[Sankari]

I wonder what people's reaction would be if similar "vigilante" organisations were to be set up in Bradford, Birmingham, Leicester or Luton by devout Muslims or even somewhere in Essex by members of the British Nazi Party

(1) It's not a vigilante organisation.

(2) Sure, I'd have no problem with Muslims setting up their own group. Let the Sikhs and Christians do it too. (It's still not the same of course, since Sikhs, Muslims and Christians are not ethnic groups, whereas Jews are an ethnic group. Shomrim says that its members can only be Jewish, but doesn't specify whether they're referring to religion or ethnicity; I suspect the latter).

(3) I think you're old enough to know why a similar group formed by the British Nazi Party would not be acceptable.

 

[RimBlock]

But if there were a lot of say, muslims, christians and buddists in the group that make certain people unwilling to help them with their inquiries, doesn't that make the group less effective.

If there are only Jews in the group doesnt that make certain people unwilling to help them with their inquiries, doesn't that make the group less effective. Not to the Jewish community sure but to other non-Jewish community members it could.

its their group, its not a publically run service, its not paid for by tax, they can do whatever the hell they want.

Within the law.

Maybe the people running it feel more comftable with their own people involved and simply wouldn't want to keep the service going with any old people in it. The fact is its helping people, no one should be against that.

Exactly. The Jewish community set it up for the Jewish community financed by the Jewish community. They make best efforts to help others but they are in essence for the Jewish community. Can you imagine the horror if they had a couple of people of Arabic decent joined.

The problem I see is that it is segregating the community based on religion rather than trying to bring the community of all races and religions together. A 'we'll look after ourselves Jack' type of attitude.

I don't see them stopping other groups of people trying to help their own communities, why should they or would they.

Sure but I would imagine most people would think this would not be allowed under British law.

Out of the people 'handed over' to the police it would be interesting to see how many were Jewish. It would also be interesting to see how many were charged with the charge being upheld in court. It would also be interesting to see if a non-Jew and a Jewish person called the hot line, who would get priority. What if a person of Arabic decent called and the criminal was Jewish ?

Maybe the Guardian Angels (London chapter) should visit Golders Green after all they do not recruit based on religion and I am sure the Jewish Community would welcome them patrolling and making their area safer.

May stop all those non-Jewish people calling the hot line they are paying for.

TBH a group of people are paying for others to provide a service. The down side is that service may intimidate others so should it be allowed.

I do think that the point made by the police concerning the disturbance of a crime scene is fairly well founded though.

RB