Islamic protest march planned for Wootton Basset

It wasn't an unlawful invasion. It was perfectly legal under UN self defence. Which allowed allies to also go to war.
The invasion was due to terrorists groups linked to 9/11 and despite giving the taliban options they refused to co-oporate. If they cop orated and handed Binladen over to be tried, we would not of gone to war.

You can not say it is being done routinely, or if it is goign on at all. You are guessing. Asking for evidence is not being childish. you and they are convinced it is happening. So much so tehy have said it in a letter. Well where's this prove it's happening then. You do realise nearly all civilians killed are by insurgents/terrorists.

Again you have no evidence that the oil companies where given preferential treatment. they won an open bid.


The fact is, to leave now, which is what they are suggesting. would rip the country and the region into bits. Instability would be massively increased.

Why do you keep going on about IRAQ, this is about Afghanistan. Two totally different conflicts.

Hardly attrocities. Crimes on a small scale where they have been charged and convicted.
 
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AcidHell2 said:
It wasn't an unlawful invasion. It was perfectly legal under UN self defence. Which allowed allies to also go to war.
The invasion was due to terrorists groups linked to 9/11 and despite giving the taliban options they refused to co-oporate. If they cop orated and handed Binladen over to be tried, we would not of gone to war.

You can not say it is being done routinely, or if it is goign on at all. You are guessing.

Again you have no evidence that the oil companies where given preferential treatment. they won an open bid.


The fact is, to leave now, which is what they are suggesting. would rip the country and the region into bits. Instability would be massively increased.
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I have just edited my previous post with evidence for the atrocities.

I do not have evidence that the oil companies were given preferential treatment. However I do have evidence that the bids were granted unconstitutionally and the fact that BP was the first to win the biggest oil contract seems a bit fishy at least. I guess time will tell.

The statement that the Taliban were uncooperative etc is weak in my opinion. Who is to say that the Taliban did have access to OBL in the first place. Where exactly are the concrete evidence that OBL was the perpetrator of the 9/11 attack? I remember very clearly seeing the planes crashing on the TT and within 2 hours there was a statement on the CNN that OBL and Al-qaida was behind the attack. Two hours is all it took them to find the perpetrators? I also remember OBL saying in one of his videos that he has not committed the crimes, although he condones the attacks. I can imagine he would be hardly bothered to accept his responsibility (perhaps even proud) if he had done them.

Anyway, the argument that the Talibans refused to deliver OBL to the Americans is in no way a reason to invade a country. The Serbs are refusing to deliver their war criminals, why are we not invading them too? (see my point?) As for the UN condoning it, well I will not comment on that as I have a pretty bad opinion about the UN's shenanigans in general.
 
kgi said:
Talibans refused to deliver OBL to the Americans is in no way a reason to invade a country.
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The Taliban, they said they would arrest him and charge him. they knew where he was and where the terrorist were training. Just because they are not state funded does not mean a country can wash there hands and sit back and do nothing. they were given a chance to clean it up themselves and refused.

OBL said he committed them, not all evidence will be released. There would have been a lot of money tracing and other stuff behind the scenes. But OBL said he planned the attacks.
 
AcidHell2 said:
The Taliban, they said they would arrest him and charge him. they knew where he was and where the terrorist were training. Just because they are not state funded does not mean a country can wash there hands and sit back and do nothing. they were given a chance to clean it up themselves and refused.

OBL said he committed them, not all evidence will be released. There would have been a lot of money tracing and other stuff behind the scenes. But OBL said he planned the attacks.
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according to wikipedia:
On September 16, 2001, bin Laden denied any involvement with the attacks by reading a statement which was broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel: "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation."[105] This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide.

In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in which Osama bin Laden is talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden admits foreknowledge of the attacks.[106] The tape was broadcast on various news networks from December 13, 2001. His distorted appearance on the tape has been attributed to tape transfer artifact.[107]
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So the US forces recovered a tape from a house that had OBL (distorted unfortunately..oh how unlucky) admitting to the attacks? That is proof? That is utterly laughable..utterly.
 
and since he has admitted it

http://www.indopedia.org/Osama_bin_Laden.html#Osama_and_September_11

Immediately after the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks in the United States, the United States government named Osama bin Laden as the prime suspect. At first he denied this accusation, suggesting the attacks were the fault of Jews or of the CIA. But in subsequent statements and interviews he expressed admiration for whoever was responsible. He took credit for "inspiring" what he calls the "blessed attacks" of September 11th in several public statements.
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In December 2001 U.S. forces in Afghanistan captured a videotape during a raid on a house in Jalalabad, in which a man who looks like bin Laden is seen and heard discussing the September 11 attacks with a group of followers. According to the official U.S. translation of this tape—which has been disputed—bin Laden says:

We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for. (full text of the tape transcript)
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As early as October 2001, the U.S. presented evidence to NATO, behind closed doors, of Osama bin Laden's involvement in the 11th of September attacks. NATO's general secretary George Robertson reported to AP that the U.S. had presented clear and decisive evidence of Osama bin Laden's participation, causing him to invoke article 5 in the NATO pact. The evidence presented to NATO was never presented to the public nor in the open press; according to American officials, the reason for this was fears that terrorists might find out secrets about American intelligence. The nature of this evidence thus still remains uncertain. The U.S. -- because of its unwillingness to show the evidence that NATO found so compelling -- has had to resort to low quality videos (like the 2001 Jalalabad video) when presenting evidence to the public.
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Anyway they knew there were training grounds and terrorists. They can not wash there hands of it just because there was no direct payments. They did not co-oporate and tehy did not try to stop these people.
 
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AcidHell2 said:
and since he has admitted it

http://www.indopedia.org/Osama_bin_Laden.html#Osama_and_September_11







Anyway they knew there were training grounds and terrorists. They can not wash there hands of it just because there was no direct payments. They did not co-oporate and tehy did not try to stop these people.
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Err, I'm sorry but the first excerpt says that he took credit for 'inspiring' the attacks. That does not mean he planned them or helped in any physical way.

The second excerpt says itself that the statement is disputed and the man 'looks' like OBL. No proof that it was him.

The third excerpt simply says nothing because nothing has been released to the public. It was decided behind closed doors that OBL was the culprit.

How does that amount for proof that he did it? On top of that don't forget that the release of the so called 'admission' videotape was timed just before the 2nd G.Bush elections and was considered by analysts (names are on wikipedia, can't remember them) that it was the tape that won him the elections.

I see no concrete proof of OBL being behind the attacks.

I agree that the Talibans knew a lot of things about terrorists in their country and could have helped and didn't. Is that a reason to invade them? I don't know, it's not all black and white in my opinion.
 
I saw this on the news and it simply makes my blood boil, the intention is to cause anger and tension, not a peaceful progress.
 
Either way we are contesting the point of unlawful invasion in the past few posts which is outside the initial OP topic.

Do you agree that the war in Afghanistan is/was wrong and was done for the wrong reasons? That is what Islam4UK say their protest is about. I've seen many protests around the world against both wars in Afgh and Iraq. Same principle and idea there too.
 
Decided by NATO, why would it be released to teh public.

Disputed, most videos of such groups are disputed, even most videos of Saddam and other such goverments are disputed.

You may not see prove, but why would you. Have you seen or have access to the evidence.


The fact is they were allowed to do what they want in Afghanistan, even the Taliban did not dispute this.

kgi said:
I agree that the Talibans knew a lot of things about terrorists in their country and could have helped and didn't. Is that a reason to invade them? I don't know, it's not all black and white in my opinion.
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Yes..

But the important bit is now that we have invaded we have to stay. Leaving will leave a vacuum with 100's of thousands of deaths.

kgi said:
Do you agree that the war in Afghanistan is/was wrong and was done for the wrong reasons?
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Of course I don't agree with you. How was it wrong? how was it the wrong reason?. You think it is acceptable for large groups to hide behind a country and attack us or our allies and allow them to get away with it.
Either the country helps (they were given that option) or they are effectively aligning themselves with such groups.
 
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Tefal said:
Fact?

So you can prove it then?

So far you believe in an unprovable theory like they do.

You advocate removing/abolishing their belief like they do yours.

You ridicule their belief like they do yours.

You believe their unprovable theory leads to immoral conduct and murder, as they do of yours.

Seriously though if you can prove this either way you're about to become one of the richest men alive.
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Can you prove the existence of a God? Is it a man? is he white with a fluffy beard who sits in a big chair looking down at us all ? I think you will find that's Father Christmas & that's a lot more credible than the God you obviously presume is up there
what is the purpose of your god?

does he watch over Earth & all it's inhabitants destroying his presumed 7 day creation of the planet Earth & do nothing?

Just get real , How can anyone with intelligence apart from primitive tribes still believe such tripe as Adam & Eve & Noah's Ark is beyond me
 
izzy eckerslike said:
Can you prove the existence of a God? Is it a man? is he white with a fluffy beard who sits in a big chair looking down at us all ? I think you will find that's Father Christmas & that's a lot more credible than the God you obviously presume is up there
what is the purpose of your god?

does he watch over Earth & all it's inhabitants destroying his presumed 7 day creation of the planet Earth & do nothing?

Just get real , How can anyone with intelligence apart from primitive tribes still believe such tripe as Adam & Eve & Noah's Ark is beyond me
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No I can't which is why I said you are as "bad" as each other, especially in your treatment of each other. :)

And what makes you think disproving Adam and eve disproves a creator?

It may have simply made what was before the theorised big bang and let it do it's stuff.

He could well just be some scientist from another race doing an experiment :p


Both are unprovable theories you're just as "bad" as them claiming to know for certain something currently unprovable.
 
Let them do it and just have a few drunk Paras there. Id pay to see that on the 6 o clock news.
 
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