Nick Griffin on Haiti

lowrider007 said:
seriously it really honestly tears me up seeing some of the views on this thread, how people can be so thoughtless and selfish bewilders me.
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I'm actually a nice guy, and I do believe in personal charity.

I do not believe in state aid or such. For instance, India has a budget 50% of ours, with more billionaires and millionaires than us and projected growth that dwarfs most of the world. It also has a space programme. Even population argument aside, it is crazy that our little Island has sent billions of pounds in aid.

I'd have no problem if it was part of the crown, but no. They wanted independence.
 
meghatronic said:
Serious relative to our history, and perhaps the Western world.

Billions of people are in povery, but the western world has given trillions in aid. There is a pattern here.

E.g. "the West spent $2.3 trillion in foreign aid over the last five decades and still had not managed to get 12 cent medicines to children to prevent half of all malaria deaths. The West spent $2.3 trillion and still had not managed to get $4 bed nets to poor families. The West spent $2.3 trillion and still had not managed to get $3 to each new mother to prevent five million child deaths."
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There is my point; serious relative to our history. "Serious" relative to the history of one of the most prosperous nations the known universe has seen. "Serious" relative to the wealthiest culture or civilization since time began.

You have a fair point with regards to aid. However, it demonstrates that it isn't enough help, and it doesn't go to the right places. I suspect over the last five decades we may have spent, counter-productively, $50 Trillion on the military. We spent over 20 times as much on weapons to kill each other than on aid to help each other. I think that's very telling.

Investing too small an amount in development and aid to the less fortunate will result in no effect. Similarly, if you spent £100 on a child's education, you would not be surprised if they learnt absolutely nothing. However, spend £5000, and you might find that they get a decent education and are able to function and support themselves. There is a degree of support you must provide to realistically stand any chance of having any long-term positive effect.
meghatronic said:
India has a budget 50% of ours
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That's not true. Expenditure by the Indian government is about 15% of the amount the British government spends, and it is spending on nearly 20 times as many people. If you are referring to GDP, Indian per capita GDP is about 3% of UK per capita GDP.
 
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PMKeates said:
You have a fair point with regards to aid. However, it demonstrates that it isn't enough help, and it doesn't go to the right places. I suspect over the last five decades we may have spent, counter-productively, $50 Trillion on the military. We spent over 20 times as much on weapons to kill each other than on aid to help each other. I think that's very telling.
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No chance it's that high. I know something like the bank bailout (£850bn) was the entire military budget for the last 25+ yrs - including many conflicts in that.

But before you condemn the military - think what the'yre doing in Haiti now. Kind of round-a-bout....
 
PMKeates said:
.That's not true. Expenditure by the Indian government is about 15% of the amount the British government spends.
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GDP at parity, UK vs India: $2.236 trillion per year | $3.304 trillion per year

India gdp growth is 7%+ ours is 0.7% so simple extraction.

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Yet we give aid to India and China (earthquakes). I said population argument aside. Although India has an unemployment only slightly higher than our own too.

PMKeates said:
There is a degree of support you must provide to realistically stand any chance of having any long-term positive effect.That's not true.
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Give a man a fish and he'll feed himself for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll ask where his free fish is.

This has been time and time again with water wells in Africa.
 
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meghatronic said:
No chance it's that high. I know something like the bank bailout (£850bn) was the entire military budget for the last 25+ yrs - including many conflicts in that.

But before you condemn the military - think what the'yre doing in Haiti now. Kind of round-a-bout....
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I am referring to global military spending, not just the UK's. The US alone is currently spending over $700 Bn per annum on the military, and the cost of the Cold War was enormous.

The military are doing a good thing in Haiti, but they don't need nuclear missiles, dozens of submarines, aircraft carriers, gunships, B-52's and B-2's to do that. The cost of maintaining a highly trained and well equipped emergency response force is a tiny tiny amount compared to what is spent on endless amounts of military equipment today.
meghatronic said:
GDP at parity, UK vs India: $2.236 trillion per year | $3.304 trillion per year

India gdp growth is 7%+ ours is 0.7% so simple extraction.

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Yet we give aid to India and China (earthquakes). I said population argument aside. Although India has an unemployment only slightly higher than our own too.


Give a man a fish and he'll feed himself for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll ask where his free fish is.

This has been time and time again with water wells in Africa.
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I refrained from using PPP for two reasons: 1) It reduces the effectiveness of my point, as by PPP, India's GDP is higher and 2) PPP is not a perfect comparison. Because bread is cheaper in India than at ASDA doesn't make India a richer country.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

The CIA World Factbook is a useful socio-economic reference. It lists UK GDP at $2.62 Trillion and Indian GDP at $1.207 Trillion. You would expect Indian GDP to be nearly 20 times higher than UK GDP, as they have nearly that many more people, but it is in fact less than half. GDP is a measure of the value of all goods and services produced in that country. When taken per capita, it's a half reasonable indicator of the average level of wealth in that country. Our per capita GDP is around 40 times higher than India's. Even using GDP PPP, we are 13 times better off.
 
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our boys fight in iraq, afghantistan etc without proper equipment , wrong boots or non at all and so forth yet no money is available to give them the standard kit.

many soldiers had to buy there own boots because the army wouldnt give them the proper ones.

no money was available from the goverment.

yet some disaster happens on the other side of the world and millions apear as if by magic.
:rolleyes:
 
Please can someone show me evidence of 50,000 elderly dying from cold weather this winter in the UK, let alone the hundreds of thousands he mentions later in his rant? I only have one grandparent left alive, she lives on a state pension and her house is unbearably hot. She doesn't struggle for money in any way.

This is just Nick Griffins way of trying to justify his hate of anyone foreign in a thinly veiled guise. It has nothing to do with him caring for the elderly. He prays on the minds of those who can't accept responsibility for their own short comings and look for a scapegoat.
 
FenixTorch said:
Please can someone show me evidence of 50,000 elderly dying from cold weather this winter in the UK, let alone the hundreds of thousands he mentions later in his rant? I only have one grandparent left alive, she lives on a state pension and her house is unbearably hot. She doesn't struggle for money in any way.

This is just Nick Griffins way of trying to justify his hate of anyone foreign in a thinly veiled guise. It has nothing to do with him caring for the elderly. He prays on the minds of those who can't accept responsibility for their own short comings and look for a scapegoat.
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Yeah - he hates Haitians. That's why he offered his attendance fee. Whilst a moot amount - it's probably £150 more than you've given.

Read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...e-could-die-of-cold-council-leaders-warn.html
And my mother couldn't afford rent on her pension - let alone heating.
 
Good points arknor. However, one does have to raise the question of why we are there in the first place? It is hard for me to talk as I was initially in support of the war, but I have changed my opinion since. I am not sure it was necessarily the right choice when considering the interests of the Iraqi people. I am now not decided either way. Anyway, we should probably try and steer this away from the can of worms that is the "why" of Iraq!

It is a problem when the apparent need of the whole differs from the actual need of the individual. I think this is the situation with soldiers' equipment in Iraq - it was very apparent to the guys on the ground what was needed, yet as this made it's way up the command chain and in to the government, it was somehow watered down and the message became ineffective. I'm sure of all us would happily contribute more of our productivity to support the people that are working on our behalf in fantastically difficult conditions and away from friends and family.
 
lowrider007 said:
This is a Utopia compared to how some people are living in third world countries, millions of human beings have lost their homes in Haiti, tens of thousands dead, and those that have been displaced don;t have a 'dole' office they can go to to get money for free, they are completely on their own, no help = high probability of malnutrition and eventual death, families lives torn apart, we as more developed nation have an obligation to help, we as human beings in a better position have an obligation to help those in need, the idea that we can only help if our country is in a state of 'economic perfection' is ridiculous, where do you draw the line on helping another nation, when every single person in our country has 'x' amount of money in their acc's and at least a 3 bedroomed semi ?, seriously it really honestly tears me up seeing some of the views in this thread, how people can be so thoughtless and selfish bewilders me.

And with regards to the importance of a loved animal vs a strangers life that is ridiculous, I've had dogs over the years that truly loved but I would put them to sleep with my own hands to save a strangers life.
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That post pretty much sums up my own feelings on this thread :(

Edit - some people need to travel and see the world beyond the borders of their own house / town / country, maybe then they would appreciate just how lucky they were to be accidently born in a fat rich western country
 
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PMKeates said:
Good points arknor. However, one does have to raise the question of why we are there in the first place? It is hard for me to talk as I was initially in support of the war, but I have changed my opinion since. I am not sure it was necessarily the right choice when considering the interests of the Iraqi people. I am now not decided either way. Anyway, we should probably try and steer this away from the can of worms that is the "why" of Iraq!
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It's moot. We are there - so that's that. And why they're there, troops should have the best equipment if government are so willing to send them places. £10mil would buy a lot of boots....
 
meghatronic said:
Read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...e-could-die-of-cold-council-leaders-warn.html
And my mother couldn't afford rent on her pension - let alone heating.
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I think we should be careful about what we are attributing to the deaths of our elderly. The number of people, especially elderly, dying in winter will be as a result of existing diseases and illnesses being amplified by the greater spread of viruses in the winter months. I suspect 40,000 elderly will not die because of a lack of heat. Young people who live in toasty warm houses still catch colds and flus more often in winter. A more severe or longer lasting winter would naturally result in a higher death rate.
 
PMKeates said:
I think we should be careful about what we are attributing to the deaths of our elderly. The number of people, especially elderly, dying in winter will be as a result of existing diseases and illnesses being amplified by the greater spread of viruses in the winter months. I suspect 40,000 elderly will not die because of a lack of heat. Young people who live in toasty warm houses still catch colds and flus more often in winter. A more severe or longer lasting winter would naturally result in a higher death rate.
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Well whatever. It got to 7C in my flat when it was -17 outside. That could have killed me. Even <15 can cause problems for long periods. My body temp was just over 35C and I had to sit in front of the oven to stay warm. I'm fat and 24 and was that cold. It's nothing to do with illness.
 
meghatronic said:
.... I had to sit in front of the oven to stay warm. I'm fat and 24....
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You should have gone out and done some exercise then! You'd have warmed up and spent some calories! We went mountain biking in shorts and a long sleeve top in the worst of the snow - was lovely and toasty after the first 10 minutes

And yes, I realise thats not the point you were making :p
 
Sagalout said:
You should have gone out and done some exercise then! You'd have warmed up and spent some calories! We went mountain biking in shorts and a long sleeve top in the worst of the snow - was lovely and toasty after the first 10 minutes

And yes, I realise thats not the point you were making :p
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I did actually keep going for jogs as when I came back it was like a furnace. It would've been okay if my heating was working - which it wasn't. It was so cold. I had a balaclava on and everything :D.
 
meghatronic said:
Yeah - he hates Haitians. That's why he offered his attendance fee. Whilst a moot amount - it's probably £150 more than you've given.

Read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...e-could-die-of-cold-council-leaders-warn.html
And my mother couldn't afford rent on her pension - let alone heating.
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I'm sure the Haitians would much rather his attendance fee than the millions he is trying to deprive them of - yes he must really love them! This is typical BNP spin which you are buying into.

That telegraph article is not evidence - it is speculation on what could happen before the event.

Maybe your mum should find a place with cheaper rent.
 
meghatronic said:
I did actually keep going for jogs as when I came back it was like a furnace. It would've been okay if my heating was working - which it wasn't. It was so cold. I had a balaclava on and everything :D.
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A fat man running through the snow in a balaclava? Wasn't that on an episode of Crimewatch?
 
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