Poll: Which party will get your vote in the General Election?

[Hatter The Mad]

"What is being paid [in the public sector] has sometimes lost the relationship it ought to have with what someone actually does. Once that happens, it’s not only unfair, it’s actually grossly inefficient...

In some quangos, local authorities and other organisations, the level of pay, especially at the top end, and bonuses have reached the stage where they don’t pass what I call the next-door neighbour test. If you can’t justify them to your neighbour, you’ve probably got it wrong...

It is not altogether clear to me why we pay very large salaries to people to do the same jobs as were being done 10 years ago for rather less.”

Gosh! You don't say, Darling.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999958.ece

 

[robgmun]

You should have seen Question Time a few weeks ago, when the suggestion was made that the Public sector should have a pay freeze to help ride the recession like those in the private sector had to endure, some members in the audience went ballistic

Yeah nice! How helpful of you

 

[scorza]

You should have seen Question Time a few weeks ago, when the suggestion was made that the Public sector should have a pay freeze to help ride the recession like those in the private sector had to endure, some members in the audience went ballistic

Yeah nice! How helpful of you

Yes quite, they should show the same restraint and sacrifice as partners at Goldman Sachs in the UK have done: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8478064.stm

 

[robgmun]

You know what i meant, we all have to buckle down and accept pay freezes for a couple of years now, while people on the gravy train of the public sector get there pay increases and other bonuses and protection from the sack thanks to unions

 

[britboy4321]

If we pay people must less in the public sector than the private sector, people tend to move to the private sector.

For example if we pay doctors on the NHS less than they could get private, funny enough they'll leave. This can result in months long waiting lists which are no fun when you've got a knackered back and can barely move so have to watch Jerry Springer for 7 months to 'save the taxpayer money' .. throughout which you're not earning so -- in the ultimate irony - are actually paying no taxes!

 

[Hatter The Mad]

If we pay people must less in the public sector than the private sector, people tend to move to the private sector.

For example if we pay doctors on the NHS less than they could get private, funny enough they'll leave. This can result in months long waiting lists which are no fun when you've got a knackered back and can barely move so have to watch Jerry Springer for 7 months to 'save the taxpayer money' .. throughout which you're not earning so -- in the ultimate irony - are actually paying no taxes!

If people in the private sector are earning X% less because of reduces revenues, then the public sector can safely match that without risking people bailing out. Public sector pay should not be rising while private sector pay (particularly executive pay) is on the decline.

Thus, your argument is flawed.. but appreciated; I am sure everyone here thinks that the public sector workers should be paid market rates.

 

[britboy4321]

I am sure no one else here disagrees that public sector people should be paid under market rates.

Didn't quite get the very last sentence --

No-one else does not agree that public sector people SHOULD be paid under market rates.

double negative then a positive -- I've lost track -- are we saying everyone thinks they should be paid under market rates, or everyone thinks they should not be paid under market rates? Sorry ...

 

[scorza]

You know what i meant, we all have to buckle down and accept pay freezes for a couple of years now, while people on the gravy train of the public sector get there pay increases and other bonuses and protection from the sack thanks to unions

Well yes I imagine most here do have to batten down the hatches and accept frozen or reduced pay, worse terms and conditions and a general climate of fear. However when I see banks, who caused the recession in the first place, paying out record bonuses I don't really see that public service workers getting their 2% pay rise as that much of an issue.

BTW I thought most public sector workers were having their pay frozen this year? The only exception was for the armed forces (fair enough imo). The problem is that a lot of public sector workers have negotiated for themselves guaranteed pay rises for X years in advance. E.g. I think the police wanted a 4% pay rise a couple of years back, the govt said no but eventually a compromise was reached where they would get their 4% pay rise, but it would be stretched over 3 years.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Didn't quite get the very last sentence --

I am sure everyone here thinks that the public sector workers should be paid market rates.

 

[britboy4321]

I am sure everyone here thinks that the public sector workers should be paid market rates.

Yea I agree.

I actually think the biggest problem with the public sector by far is the lack of competition. Just once a year .. get given £113m to pick up the rubbish, no matter how well or badly you didn it last year.

My dad worked for the council for his whole life (at the top level). He said if any department leaders dared (or were stupid enough) to suggest they had saved money from the previous year, their next year's budget was always slahed to that new lower amount. So dept managers started spending money on any old thing 1 month before budget discussions to max out their budget, so they could justify getting the same budget next year 'in case they suddenly needed it' (made their life easier for next year).

So in March when you see a crazy hive of activity from the council all of a sudden, you know why! It's everyone maxing out their budgets before April 1st so it's not reduced so they have an easier next year with no real pressure to achieve last year's successful savings.. which is so daft it's 'orrible but I can see why it happens!

 

[Hatter The Mad]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/25/public-spending-waste-duplication-london

Public services could cut costs by 15%

• Money wasted through inefficiency, says report
• Up to £11bn lost in London alone, research concludes

According to a detailed study of spending in London, 15% of what taxpayers spend on public services gets wasted. In London alone that amounts to £11bn pa, and if extrapolated across the entire country suggests total waste is running at £75bn pa.

it comes from a operation called Total Place, which has been set up by the Treasury, and is jointly sponsored by the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), and the Local Government Association. Here's how it describes itself:

The research group is called 'Total Place' is a new initiative that looks at how a ‘whole area’ approach to public services can lead to better services at less cost. It seeks to identify and avoid overlap and duplication between organisations – delivering a step change in both service improvement and efficiency at the local level, as well as across Whitehall.

What they are focusing on in particular is how Labour's complex web of quangos, agencies, and top-down initiatives collide at local level in a maelstrom of duplication and inefficiency. And this 15% is the estimate of waste just on the public services delivered to us locally here in the UK (ie excluding things like defence, overseas aid, EU budget, as well as most of the entitlement spending on welfare benefits).

So that's £75bn pa.

Or £3,000 pa for every single household.

Or the entire annual tax take from VAT.

Just flushed away down the bog.

 

[Paddyw01]

43% would vote for that ***** Cameron? What has this country come to.

 

[Biohazard]

Gosh! You don't say, Darling.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999958.ece

Mr Darling:

"“It is not altogether clear to me why we pay very large salaries to people to do the same jobs as were being done 10 years ago for rather less,” he said. "

Our chancellor isn't familiar with inflation and is not very clear on the paygrades agreed by his own department?

What a noob

 

[KillBoY_UK]

43% would vote for that ***** Cameron? What has this country come to.

my thoughts as well but I don't think it take very long for people to hate Cameron and his lot as much as labour now, eps has he been all talk and ye said little or nothing

 

[Paddyw01]

my thoughts as well but I don't think it take very long for people to hate Cameron and his lot as much as labour now, eps has he been all talk and ye said little or nothing

I have absolutely no trust in Brown, but I'd rather have him as PM, or labour as a whole, than an Etonian and Oxford educated actor who has abolutely no passion. Oh, and those are the words of his old Oxford Uni tutor that I saw in a documentary about him a while ago.

God I cannot stand that man, but I know he's going to be the next PM and that scares the living daylights out of me.

 

[britboy4321]

I know .. David Cameron standing on the steps of the White house with Barack Obama shaking his hand, with all the world leaders there ..

Compared to Gordon Brown, Barack (and the rest) are gonna be thinking 'Who sent this snotty nosed posh kid?'

Just embarrassing! Does he really scream 'top international statesman' to, well, anyone at all?

 

[Dolph]

I have absolutely no trust in Brown, but I'd rather have him as PM, or labour as a whole, than an Etonian and Oxford educated actor who has abolutely no passion. Oh, and those are the words of his old Oxford Uni tutor that I saw in a documentary about him a while ago.

God I cannot stand that man, but I know he's going to be the next PM and that scares the living daylights out of me.

I know .. David Cameron standing on the steps of the White house with Barack Obama shaking his hand, with all the world leaders there ..

Compared to Gordon Brown, Barack (and the rest) are gonna be thinking 'Who sent this snotty nosed posh kid?'

Just embarrassing! Does he really scream 'top international statesman' to, well, anyone at all?

Got any rational, evidence based arguments rather than jealousy, looks, and irrelevant comparisons given Brown's utter incompetence and poor performance on the international stage?

 

[Dolph]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/25/public-spending-waste-duplication-london

Public services could cut costs by 15%

• Money wasted through inefficiency, says report
• Up to £11bn lost in London alone, research concludes

According to a detailed study of spending in London, 15% of what taxpayers spend on public services gets wasted. In London alone that amounts to £11bn pa, and if extrapolated across the entire country suggests total waste is running at £75bn pa.

it comes from a operation called Total Place, which has been set up by the Treasury, and is jointly sponsored by the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), and the Local Government Association. Here's how it describes itself:

The research group is called 'Total Place' is a new initiative that looks at how a ‘whole area’ approach to public services can lead to better services at less cost. It seeks to identify and avoid overlap and duplication between organisations – delivering a step change in both service improvement and efficiency at the local level, as well as across Whitehall.

What they are focusing on in particular is how Labour's complex web of quangos, agencies, and top-down initiatives collide at local level in a maelstrom of duplication and inefficiency. And this 15% is the estimate of waste just on the public services delivered to us locally here in the UK (ie excluding things like defence, overseas aid, EU budget, as well as most of the entitlement spending on welfare benefits).

So that's £75bn pa.

Or £3,000 pa for every single household.

Or the entire annual tax take from VAT.

Just flushed away down the bog.

No no no, you can't possibly do anything to change anything in the public service without reducing the amount of actual work done... Didn't you know?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Dolph; you cannot reason someone out of something they did not reason themselves into.

 

[Dolph]

Yea I agree.

I agree that they should have market level overall compensation packages, which may or may not involve market level pay. If they want market level pay, they need to sort out their pensions issues first, and bring attendence/performance metrics in line with the private sector.

I actually think the biggest problem with the public sector by far is the lack of competition. Just once a year .. get given £113m to pick up the rubbish, no matter how well or badly you didn it last year.

Indeed, unfortuantely there is massive inertia to any alternative because of the mistaken belief people have that government funding is free services...

Dolph; you cannot reason someone out of something they did not reason themselves into.

True, but you can highlight the flaws in their arguments to anyone else who may be reading.