Yup, although now it's iro £38k new (starting)
VW Phaeton (This threads for Firestar 3X)
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Yup, although now it's iro £38k new (starting)
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I know nothing first-hand of the Phaeton. Fox's opinion, sounds very similar to Clarksons but omits the Bentley connection. From what I hear, it's a complete bargain as a luxury car. Getting over the fact that it's a VW is the hardest part imo.
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Surely you mean 7 series?
I dunno where this comes from, that everyone thinks Clarkson hates the Phaeton, he actually loves it! Hasn't anyone seen his Topgear review from a few years back where he sits in the back with a hot girl and boils a kettle?
Heres his Times review
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article2837650.ece
I agree with Fox on most points.
I took an extended test drive in one (a day) before I bought the 4.2 Audi A8 I used to own. I tested the 6.0 W12 as that was the one I was thinking of buying.
It wasn't slow by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't fast either. The 4.2 A8 is the same performance on paper due to the weight difference.
My main complaint with the car was the equipment never felt very good in it. The ergonomics were a bit "meh" and the sat-nav system was downright awful.
I love the way the car looks but to me, as Fox says, it lacked any sense of occasion and for £35k (what I was paying back then) I damn well wanted dancing girls.
I wouldn't say "no" to one at all but, there are better cars available for a little more money.
I took an extended test drive in one (a day) before I bought the 4.2 Audi A8 I used to own. I tested the 6.0 W12 as that was the one I was thinking of buying.
It wasn't slow by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't fast either. The 4.2 A8 is the same performance on paper due to the weight difference.
My main complaint with the car was the equipment never felt very good in it. The ergonomics were a bit "meh" and the sat-nav system was downright awful.
I love the way the car looks but to me, as Fox says, it lacked any sense of occasion and for £35k (what I was paying back then) I damn well wanted dancing girls.
I wouldn't say "no" to one at all but, there are better cars available for a little more money.
While I agree that the 4.2 Audi A8 may have seemed faster, that is more as a consequence of the Audis over firm suspension and the Phaetons soft cosseting floaty suspension. The detractors are missing the point of the Phaeton, it is NOT a sports saloon, the Audi A8 IS.
But just to highlight my point about the difference between FEELING fast and actually BEING fast, see below
Audi A8 4.2 quattro 6.1secs to 60, 155mph, 330bhp
VW Phaeton 6.0W12 5.9secs to 60, 155mph, 443bhp (unrestricted will do 186mph apparently)
(Figures from Parkers again)
Also, I can't agree less with the equipment thing, The fit and finish were first rate (after all the Audi and VW are made by the same people), the seats were amazing, there were no creaks or groans (unlike the Audi A8 I drove, but thats more down to its over frim suspension) The stereo sound was absolutely fantastic. Yes I do agree with the satnav thing, because I had it and it was crap. But the Phaeton is a 2003 car and due to lack of sales VW are not going to invest big money updating the integrated satnav.
At the end of the day, if you like ostentation and you want people to think you "have arrived" you buy a Merc or BMW, (Audis are not as bad) If you like a refined classy motor, a Phaeton is a totally viable option.
But just to highlight my point about the difference between FEELING fast and actually BEING fast, see below
Audi A8 4.2 quattro 6.1secs to 60, 155mph, 330bhp
VW Phaeton 6.0W12 5.9secs to 60, 155mph, 443bhp (unrestricted will do 186mph apparently)
(Figures from Parkers again)
Also, I can't agree less with the equipment thing, The fit and finish were first rate (after all the Audi and VW are made by the same people), the seats were amazing, there were no creaks or groans (unlike the Audi A8 I drove, but thats more down to its over frim suspension) The stereo sound was absolutely fantastic. Yes I do agree with the satnav thing, because I had it and it was crap. But the Phaeton is a 2003 car and due to lack of sales VW are not going to invest big money updating the integrated satnav.
At the end of the day, if you like ostentation and you want people to think you "have arrived" you buy a Merc or BMW, (Audis are not as bad) If you like a refined classy motor, a Phaeton is a totally viable option.
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He he he, you're probably right, just like they did with the Bugatti Veyron (yes, thats a VW too
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My comment about Clarkson was relating to it lacking 'occasion'. That's also where I believe that Fox has aligned his views with Clarkson.
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I think you will find Fox is guilty of plagarism.
It is a fantastic car, I have never felt more safe and secure and at ease on a motorway than in this car, performance is adequate much better 30-100 than off the line. I have the 3.0TDi not that you would notice in the ultra quiet cabin. I also like the fact that virtually everyone doesn't know what it is, I don't mind it being a VW I had a Skoda before this.
Loving your work Eddmac
It is a fantastic car, I have never felt more safe and secure and at ease on a motorway than in this car, performance is adequate much better 30-100 than off the line. I have the 3.0TDi not that you would notice in the ultra quiet cabin. I also like the fact that virtually everyone doesn't know what it is, I don't mind it being a VW I had a Skoda before this.
Loving your work Eddmac
Loving your work Eddmac
Finally a true believer
Check this interesting piece out
http://www.inautonews.com/volkswagen-phaeton-ranked-most-secure-luxury-car
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They have updated the navigation system it is the RNS510 out of a Golf/Passat with a bigger screen the RNS810 I think they call it. Excellent bit of kit HD based touch screen, 3D maps with lane guidance it also integrates with the parking sensors and climate control system.
I personally would take the A8 over one as I prefer the interior but it is not a bad car assuming you don't buy a brand new one.
If you want an Audi, buy an Audi ( and pay 2K more for it, get poorer service with it, have a smaller car, with less equipment (did i mention the Phaeton has a dehumidifier? that means the windows dont steam up
I'm geniunely curious, how much more does the Phaeton have in way of equipment and how much smaller is the A8 in comparison?
As far as the ride issue, I'd probably agree if you are talking D2 A8,but the D3 moved on and the +05 is better again and of course it depends on what setting you have it on.
The 4.2 TDI is 5.9 secs but irregardless of the unimportance of that figure, it really is a peach of a motor.
Putting aside ride and luxury issues, they do have a great appeal if you don't fancy something that is a bit more in-your-face, a bit like an A8 in there relative anonymity and blandness.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
To be fair I was making a point about its lack of performance but if you wish to get particular a Mondeo 2.2 Titanium X would be quicker. Not that it matters - I think the point I made came across clearly enough
Obviously you like the car, my opinion on it is based on what I felt and why I feel it was an abject failure in terms of sales. People who don't want a bit of 'brand' when buying a £60,000 car are few and far between.
No, I have never and will never buy a car purely for the 'imagined' prestige. However unlike many I won't sit here and pretend that 'prestige' has absolutely no place in car purchase. It absolutely does and it sells many hundreds of thousands of cars. If I was buying a £60,000 luxury car I, along with probably 95% of other people buying the same sort of car, would want at least some sort of prestige to go with the purchase.
Proof: Phaeton did not sell.
I know quite a lot about the Phaeton and know only too well that it's based on the same floorpan and has the same engine range (to a point - I don't see you in a 6.0 W12 though?) as the Continental. It is, however, NOT 'the same car'. It is the same car only in the same way that a Volkswagen Beetle and an Audi TT are the same car or that a Skoda Octavia 2.0 TDI and an Audi S3 are the same car.
People make the mistake of thinking platform and component sharing make cars the same. It doesn't. Go and sit in a Continental Flying Spur and come back and honestly say 'It's just like a Phaeton'. Because it isn't.
The Flying Spur is so much more car than the VW - but this of course isn't a specific criticism of the VW as it does cost less than a Flying Spur (Though, when new, a 6.0 W12 Phaeton was NOT 'a quarter' of the price of a Flying Spur and is also missing a few important bits).
Prices valid as of 17:19 on 26/01/2010:
Ford Focus 2.0 TDCi Zetec-S: £21702
VW Golf 2.0 GT TDI: £21445
As you can see, comparably priced. The Golf is infact actually cheaper.
And if you follow your logic, VW wouldnt sell any cars because they are 'the same car' as a Skoda.
We are being very judgemental today. You seem to be slipping into Defence Mode as if its your duty to defend your choice of car. I simply offered my opinion on what I thought of the Phaeton and offered reasons I thought it didnt sell.....
Now suddenly you've got me well and truely stereotyped...
People who buy Audi A8's and Mercedes Benz S500's are also not buying a 'sporting executive saloon' either because neither car is a 'sporting executive saloon'. Frankly I'd question whether Audi sell a 'sporting executive saloon' at all, but if they do it has an A6 badge on the back not an A8 badge. Audi, at least higher in the range, is a byword for quality and discreetness rather than sporting ability.
No, the Audi A8 is NOT a Sports Saloon. It is a luxury car. When it tries to be a Sport Saloon (Step forward Audi S8) nobody buys it, because the typical A8 buyer is not after a Sport Saloon. To dismiss it as a Sports Saloon is selling it short - the A8 is Audi's flagship - it is a luxury car.
If you want 'sport' you don't buy a car the size of an A8. This is where BMW consistently go wrong with the 7 Series - they are always offering the keen drivers choice. This is great in a 1 Series, 3 Series or 5 Series but as the 7's limited success in this market against the S Class Mercedes shows, luxury car buyers generally do not want a sport saloon.
Is there a reason why you've decided to pretend that the A8 6.0 W12, which has the same 443bhp engine but becuase of the A8's lightweight construction hits 60 in 4.9 seconds, does not exist?
I'm not entirely sure where BMW keeps coming from in this thread. I've certainly not attempted to bring them into it because as I've explained above, the 7 is compromised in this class. It is my opinion that the best cars in this particular class (We'll leave the Bentley out) are the Mercedes Benz S Class and the Audi A8.
The 7 is never destined for the same levels of success as the Mercedes for pricesely the reasons you keep slating the A8 - it actually is trying to be 'Sporting' which is not what this market wants.
There seems to be a bit of inverted snobbery in this thread - the number of people who truely do not care *at all* about brand are very, very few and far between. Most who claim to be on the moral highground in this regard are mistaken. Otherwise where are all the Hyundai Grenduers? Why do none of you buy the actually very competent Kia C'eed?
It is fact, whether you like it or not, that the majority of people buying a £60,000 luxury car want a a luxury badge as well as a luxury car. This doesnt mean they buy purely on badge, in the same way that just because somebody wants, say, air conditioning doesnt mean they are buying PURELY on that fact, but it means its part of the overall package.
And the main reason the Phaeton was a sales disaster.
I'm not disputing the build quality. As a car, in isolation, I liked it. But compared to the available competition, it just doesn't cut it in my opinion (I often forget everyone is allowed an opinion except me...). Which is why they are so very rare.
It is also important to note (And I did mention this but I guess it was missed when the red mist of the Phaeton owners descended) that they used to offer sensational value for money - there was a point when to get anything even remotely comparable to a Phaeton you would need to buy a car twice as old or double the price.
This is no longer the case, so IMHO, its 'bargain' status is living on past reputation.
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I see, I take it only Jeremy Clarkson is allowed to use certain words in the dictionary now, and if anyone else uses them, they are obviously copying him
nah, i'm good thanksBTW on a different note, I have a set of fancy tail lights for that shape of Leon in your sig if you still have it
if you want shot of them, try ebay or head over to seatcupra.net