3D TVs Whos Interested?

james.miller · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:14

Chris1712 said:
Well, the PS3 can output 1080p60 from games (I think, GT5P and Ninja Gaiden Sigma spring to mind). I know its stillrendering @ 720p60 but the HDMI is chucking out 60 frames a second @ 1080p.

it does indeed, but 3d would require double that @ 60hz, there's where the uncertainty is

Chris1712 · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:17

james.miller said:
I would assume it does and more. gaming at 24fps progressive is no fun at all. Even moving a mouse around a screen on a pc, you can see how slow it is on a 24hz display. This doesnt cause problems for video, but it would for gaming anf if sony are going down the doubling router the 48hz 3d would suffer similar problems im guessing, yet when wipeout was shown in 3d, i dont remember any problems like that being spoken about. There's a larger increase between 24fps and 30fps progresive than some people give it credit for. im going to put it out there and guess 48hz 3d for film, 60hz for gaming. either of which is doable on hdmi 1.3, but i would be surprised if they managed 1080p/60hz 3d.

Unfortunately (and somewhat hilariously) the BD3D spec doesn't include 24fps spec. We'll be back to the judder of DVD pulldown days, but in 3D. Ofcourse they can add the fps to the spec later (I assume!).

james.miller · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:18

Chris1712 said:
Unfortunately (and somewhat hilariously) the BD3D spec doesn't include 24fps spec. We'll be back to the judder of DVD pulldown days, but in 3D. Ofcourse they can add the fps to the spec later (I assume!).

THAT i didnt know.

Now i could say they did that on purpose, but thats just being cynical

on a serious note though....DOH?

3D judder....the next generation?

Stag · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:21

120 is divisible by 24 though?

Chris1712 · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:22

james.miller said:
THAT i didnt know.

Now i could say they did that on purpose, but thats just being cynical on a serious note though....DOH?

3D judder....the next generation?

Furthermore, 24p content in 3D might make some funky effects with 120hz 3d sets? Not sure, but 24 fits in 5 time to that, 3 for left and 2 for right

. I guess the TV's/Players would communicate otherwise but a left-right-left-right-left-left-right-left and so on might be a bit weird, if it turned out like that.

I think 120hz 3d will only be the first gen anyway, with Samsung (I think?) sets being 240hz already.

Chris1712 · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:23

Stag said:
120 is divisible by 24 though?

Correct, but the content on the disc so far is intended to be 1080p/60/50

Mr Latte · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:27

Chris1712 said:
Well, the PS3 can output 1080p60 from games (I think, GT5P and Ninja Gaiden Sigma spring to mind). I know its stillrendering @ 720p60 but the HDMI is chucking out 60 frames a second @ 1080p.

For games as it is GPU/CELL related it is likely that PS3 will use the 1/2 resolution interlaced 1080i 3D.

It cant magically now draw double the frames so they could use interlacing.
Say for example assuming GT5 runs at 1280x1080 as normal in 1080p

For 3D it could offer:
640x1080i Left eye
640x1080i Right eye

It would however be possible to also use 720p for 3D games.
The HDMI spec for 3D aparently allows for 720p @ 50 and 60Hz

Mr Latte · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:29

Chris1712 said:
Furthermore, 24p content in 3D might make some funky effects with 120hz 3d sets? Not sure, but 24 fits in 5 time to that, 3 for left and 2 for right . I guess the TV's/Players would communicate otherwise but a left-right-left-right-left-left-right-left and so on might be a bit weird, if it turned out like that.

I think 120hz 3d will only be the first gen anyway, with Samsung (I think?) sets being 240hz already.

I believe Phil stated on the AV Forums Panasonic thread that the Panasonic range would support Dual 1080p @48hz so 24hz each eye.

Chris1712 · 1 Mar 2010 at 19:30

Mr Latte said:
For games as it is GPU/CELL related it is likely that PS3 will use the 1/2 resolution interlaced 1080i 3D.

It cant magically now draw double the frames so they could use interlacing.
Say for example assuming GT5 runs at 1280x1080 as normal in 1080p

For 3D it could offer:
640x1080i Left eye
640x1080i Right eye

It would however be possible to also use 720p for 3D games.
The HDMI spec for 3D aparently allows for 720p @ 50 and 60Hz

Yes I'm assuming most 3D games will use side-by-side or top/bottom 3d encoding, because yes It can't suddenly draw twice the frames. Above I was just providing some insight as to the HDMI outputs ability to chuck out 1080p/60, even if it is just upscaled from a 720p60 render.

solway · 1 Mar 2010 at 20:12

Simmz said:
Yeah I read it uses same technology as PS3.

would be so funny if it got massive heatsink sticking out the side on heatpipes.

im looking that the samsung LED ones, not because of the 3D, but mainly the new DVB-T2 built in tuner

i.e. freeview HD

fabkat · 2 Mar 2010 at 09:05

more interested in better SD picture from Panny and better blacks. oh and better calibration features like those on the european + US models for me.

Mr Latte · 2 Mar 2010 at 10:16

fabkat said:
more interested in better SD picture from Panny and better blacks. oh and better calibration features like those on the european + US models for me.

Yeah Ive picked up in reading that the upscaling on the past models was not so good from SD content. It truely seems though that Panasonic have taken onboard criticisim from forum groups and listened to what points people were not happy with.

Im going to wait for reviews and see how the range does, likely waait a little while to prices drop a bit before deciding to commit. Still also want to see reviews of models from other brands particulary Samsung.

Heres a great link though to the features/spec and tech in the new

Panasonic VT 3D models.
One heck of a spec list for a TV.

I noticed that for 3D and 24hz they have included new technology to ensure with 3D that the glasses dont cause eyestrain. Will it still offer super smooth motion in movies?
It looks 3D Blu Ray will be at 120Hz with 60Hz per eye. I guess if people prefer 2D and normal standard full 1080/24 then the set can still offer this of course.

Participant · 2 Mar 2010 at 12:44

If the 3D on home TVs is half as good as the effects I witnessed when watching Avatar at Birmingham IMAX on Sunday, then I'm very interested. It honestly blew my mind it was so good. I will wait for the delivery standards and price to settle down first though.

RichIbizaSport · 2 Mar 2010 at 12:59

Robbie G said:
If the 3D on home TVs is half as good as the effects I witnessed when watching Avatar at Birmingham IMAX on Sunday, then I'm very interested. It honestly blew my mind it was so good. I will wait for the delivery standards and price to settle down first though.

+1

mcwildcard · 2 Mar 2010 at 13:15

I reckon I'll be able to save up about a grand for one in the time it takes for them to come down to that price.

MDrX · 2 Mar 2010 at 13:26

If the 3D worked from acute angles, didn't need any glasses, and I could afford a massive panel then yeah.

Avatar gave me a raging headache though so maybe not.

james.miller · 2 Mar 2010 at 16:42

Mr Latte said:
It looks 3D Blu Ray will be at 120Hz with 60Hz per eye. I guess if people prefer 2D and normal standard full 1080/24 then the set can still offer this of course.

That will be interesting. It's been noted that some movied (pirates of the Caribbean II being a notable example) already exceed 50Mb/sec in some scenes, which itself is an oddball because the limit is supposed to be 48mb/sec.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/1012484-post16.html

49.5Mb/sec transfer rate, 6.9 of which is the audio so that's 42.5Mb/sec for the video.

The original blray spec called for 2x drives and thats what most (if not all?) players have built in. 2x drives of course limiting the transfer rate to 72mb/sec.

If we were to take worst case, that movie in 1080p60hz would increase the bitrate by a factor of 2.5 (106.25Mb/sec). in 1080p/60 3d, it would quintuple it - about 212Mb/sec.

If that were true (and there no reason why it couldnt be done) we'd be looking at 6-8x readers to play the flims. kiss goodbye to probably everything out there with the exception of pc readers. That's a sticky situation really that could go a number of ways, possibly dropping the bitrate by a factor of 3 (to allow 2x drives to play it) or so crazy new codec that cuts the bitrate by some obscene amount whilst keeping the quality.

Mr Latte · 2 Mar 2010 at 19:35

Why worry about all that, the spec has be set and it works.

The specification uses the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) codec, an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50 per cent overhead compared to equivalent 2D content. It also provides details on other features such as 3D menu navigation and subtitles.

Of course I just rattled all that from my head, really

If you search you tube for cyberlink 3D thiers a video from CES and the guy talks about the reduncy techniques which allows the 50% increase and reckons 3D Blu Ray could peak at about 60MB sec. Personally i couldnt care how it works or the technical side of it. For me im more interested in how,when and how much and seeing what hardware is coming soon.

UPDATE!
The 1st 3D BD players are due in shops in April - May
Samsung will be among the first to have a UK model available aparently.

Their 7000 series LED 3DTV is due to retail for £1800 for 40" and with NO glasses. YIKES!!!

Yannic · 2 Mar 2010 at 19:46

I think ill be waiting too. I really want to upgrade to a new tv but the price of these is just a bit high at the moment.

So for now ill be putting up with the Sammy ps50q7hd.

james.miller · 2 Mar 2010 at 20:15

Mr Latte said:
Why worry about all that, the spec has be set and it works.

The specification uses the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) codec, an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50 per cent overhead compared to equivalent 2D content. It also provides details on other features such as 3D menu navigation and subtitles.

Of course I just rattled all that from my head, really

If you search you tube for cyberlink 3D thiers a video from CES and the guy talks about the reduncy techniques which allows the 50% increase and reckons 3D Blu Ray could peak at about 60MB sec. Personally i couldnt care how it works or the technical side of it. For me im more interested in how,when and how much and seeing what hardware is coming soon.

at 24fps or 60fps? i cant believe that MVC @ 1080p60 manages a 50% increase in bitrate compared to 1080p24 - that would be a hell of an achievement considering 2d 1080p60 uses more bandwidth than that. either they arent actually using 1080p60 or they arent comparing it to 1080p24 either. going by this table here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC, i reckon we'll likely see HiP level 4.0-4.2 on disc, with 4.2 apparently being good for 64fps @ 1920x1080. That would be nice!