Poll: Do you support the BA Cabin Crew 12 day strike at Christmas?

[dannyjo22]

It appears there are lies, damn lies, and press statements by Unite...

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyin...parating-unite-the-unions’-fiction-from-fact/

Oh come on the balls in that story, a one sided argument. Again anyone can fudge figures as they have. The 52.5% of gatwick staff turned up for duty. Yeah right, how the hell did the vote to strike get through then. That 52% will be made up from crews currently not rostered in, so won't have had the option to strike yet and from the crews/aircraft they have leased from other airlines.

I can see the lies on both sides to try to win over the public, yet you only seem to be able to see this from one way, finding the lies from the unite standpoint without ever looking for them the other way. You're not looking for a balanced discussion on whether this is right or wrong you already made your mind up with the word 'strike'.

 

[Dolph]

Err this a blog that thinks BA speak nothing but the gospel truth. I personally think it would be wise to take anything said by either side with a pinch of salt.

And their rebuttals had nothing to do with BA but were sourced from independent flight information...

Still, Unions and their supporters never let facts get in the way of a good lie. It's easy to see where the Labour government gets their dishonesty from.

 

[Dolph]

Oh come on the balls in that story, a one sided argument. Again anyone can fudge figures as they have. The 52.5% of gatwick staff turned up for duty. Yeah right, how the hell did the vote to strike get through then. That 52% will be made up from crews currently not rostered in, so won't have had the option to strike yet and from the crews/aircraft they have leased from other airlines.

Perhaps they realised they were being unreasonable between the vote and the strike?

Remember, the flight records are public knowledge, it really shows the contempt Unite have for their members and the general public to lie about matters of public record.

I can see the lies on both sides to try to win over the public, yet you only seem to be able to see this from one way, finding the lies from the unite standpoint without ever looking for them the other way. You're not looking for a balanced discussion on whether this is right or wrong you already made your mind up with the word 'strike'.

There are lies from the other side, but the other side is not making unreasonable demands and trying to misrepresent their position as a contract dispute.

As for making my mind up, it wasn't when I saw the strike idea, but when I saw the reasons for striking...

 

[Dolph]

I'm sorry but how exactly did the CAA manage to do a salary survey of everyone in the industry. I know when they did one for engineers pay it was thousands of pounds out of what people where actually getting paid.

These figures never take into account the little ways airlines top up figures, such as Virgin having a low basic pay but you get huge bonuses for room sharing on fly aways, huge incentives. Or like my own airline that tops up through shift rotas and various unsocialble hours pay. Yet on paper the basic looks low.

Virgin pays low wages for one reason alone and everyone knows why. They don't want old ladies walking the aisles. They want young fit girls that move on for more money when mavity starts to take effect. Its purely ageism that they can get away with off the record.

I work in the airline industry and for a pay negotiation a CAA audit was used. It was a joke. I had a pay packet for a place I'd just left and the CAA figures just had the basic rate, it didn't take into account the extras paid in shift premiums, License pay or aircraft type approvals. You could fudge the figures as low as you want in an industry salary review if you don't ask the correct questions.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6466748.ece

The CAA salary figures for 2008 include gross basic pay, overtime, flying bonuses and subsistence allowances.

Data trumps anecdotes every time...

 

[scorza]

Data trumps PR lies every time. From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog...mmentKey:56e7b00d-e7ea-445a-96e3-311620095627

276 Scheduled BA Flight Departures From Heathrow for sat 21st

135 of those flights were cancelled.

that leaves 141 BA departures from Heathrow today right? Erm, no.

3 flights to Finland included in those figures operated by Finnair. Also...

20 flights to the Republic of Ireland operated by Aer Lingus ( BA don't even fly to Eire from LHR!)

9 flights to Spain were Iberia aircraft.

4 flights included in those figures were BMI to Damascus, Tehran, Beirut and Almaty!

3 flights to BKK, HKG, SIN were Qantas.

That leaves us with 102 departures today. These figures include those wet leased aircraft, and flights that left as cargo only with no passengers. I believe the number of chartered aircraft was 23. Assuming they just operated one flight each ( it's more likely they flew a couple each ), that leaves us with 79 BA aircraft departing, some without and some with very few passengers. That's 28% of the schedule.

28% !!! That's a far cry from Walsh's 65%.

And before any criticises the source, it's equally as valid as Dolph's

 

[dannyjo22]

Data trumps anecdotes every time...

No it doesn't, have you actually ever had your pay analized by a CAA audit? I have only to be told I was on £10,000 less than I actually was and those of my collegues around me.

They are only as accurate as they figures they are fed from various companies. Of course it would not be in the interests of these companies to have the figure lowered would it. There are always ways to drive down the average.

 

[dannyjo22]

Perhaps they realised they were being unreasonable between the vote and the strike?

Remember, the flight records are public knowledge, it really shows the contempt Unite have for their members and the general public to lie about matters of public record....

No they are fudging the figures to make it look like more BA staff turned up they they actually did. As the link scorza posted shows.

Either that or lots of ba staff voted for the strike and then bottled it. The guardian link clearly shows they made the figures up from leasings.

And before any criticises the source, it's equally as valid as Dolph's

He is only interested in union lies, obviously.

 

[Dolph]

No it doesn't, have you actually ever had your pay analized by a CAA audit? I have only to be told I was on £10,000 less than I actually was and those of my collegues around me.

They are only as accurate as they figures they are fed from various companies. Of course it would not be in the interests of these companies to have the figure lowered would it. There are always ways to drive down the average.

You appear to be confusing individual rates with average rates...

 

[Dolph]

No they are fudging the figures to make it look like more BA staff turned up they they actually did. As the link scorza posted shows.

Either that or lots of ba staff voted for the strike and then bottled it. The guardian link clearly shows they made the figures up from leasings.

He is only interested in union lies, obviously.

Are you saying BA is wrong from a customer perspective that they have managed to complete most of their scheduled flights?

 

[Jokester]

Apparently Gatwick crews have been using the new operating practises for the past couple of years. That's why Gatwick flights have been largely unaffected because the crews weren't willing to strike if it meant that they would lose their flight perks.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Are you saying BA is wrong from a customer perspective that they have managed to complete most of their scheduled flights?

Did you read Scorzas post? I would say 28% isn't "complete most of thier scheduled flights".

Seems like the strike really is having an affect on BA - and good on the strikers I say.*

BTW - we're out on 29th + 30th March and 6th + 7th April as well.

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/commercial.../further-action-in-hp-enterprise-services.cfm

 

[Dolph]

Did you read Scorzas post? I would say 28% isn't "complete most of thier scheduled flights".

Seems like the strike really is having an affect on BA - and good on the strikers I say.*

BTW - we're out on 29th + 30th March and 6th + 7th April as well.

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/commercial.../further-action-in-hp-enterprise-services.cfm

Did you read my post? The key part is 'from a customer perspective', so the chartered and borrowed planes count in terms of BA providing their normal service.

I must say, I'm loving the spring of discontent, it's just what is needed to get Labour out of power and to finally get some legal responsibility on the unions for the consequences of unreasonable actions in the next parliament, especially if it keeps going

 

[scorza]

Did you read my post? The key part is 'from a customer perspective', so the chartered and borrowed planes count in terms of BA providing their normal service.

What about from a shareholder perspective? If I were a BA shareholder I'd be absolutely furious that management were hell bent on destroying the company by antagonising the staff. At the moment BA is being run for the benefit of its CEO Willie Walsh, who wants to make a name for himself, instead of for the benefit of its shareholders.

 

[dannyjo22]

You appear to be confusing individual rates with average rates...

No I'm not I'm just doubting the information and the accuracy of any wage review with the figures the CAA are given. i know how inaccurate they are first hand. Perhaps you have experience of this as well?

I've first hand experince of the Average supposed Licenced Aircraft engineer salary in a CAA audit and I know how skewed the figures are.

They are only as accurate as the figures they are given.

Are you saying BA is wrong from a customer perspective that they have managed to complete most of their scheduled flights?

Whats that got to do with a customer persective. I'm saying the figures they quote for staff turning up is a lie. I'm not interested in the number of staff that turned up from a rival airline in leased aircraft to complete flights for Walshes magical 55% turnout. I want to know the number of rostered crews for each day from BA that actually turned out.

I'm saying there are blantant lies on both sides but clearly you do not wish to see that and want to continue the tory boy crusade.

I like to actually look at the lies from both sides whether I agree to it or not.

The most laughable thing for me in the whole episode is pilots voluntering to help out in the cabin. It's not like those ****s have ever held the company to ransom is it.

 

[dannyjo22]

I must say, I'm loving the spring of discontent, it's just what is needed to get Labour out of power and to finally get some legal responsibility on the unions for the consequences of unreasonable actions in the next parliament, especially if it keeps going

Your deluded if you think there won't be even more strikes in the aviation industry with a change in government or other industries. It's only going to get worse, the cost of flying needs to double. Its too cheap, everyone knows it. Even the ***** that runs Ryanair knows low cost air travel is over.

Its either that or wages are not going to be able to go up again. There's not enough profit in the business until seat prices go up.

I look forward to this upcoming tory utopia where there won't be any more strikes and discontent. I seem to remember being at school under a tory government and forever getting days off because of teacher strikes.

Obviously that was a labour problem as well.

 

[Dolph]

What about from a shareholder perspective? If I were a BA shareholder I'd be absolutely furious that management were hell bent on destroying the company by antagonising the staff. At the moment BA is being run for the benefit of its CEO Willie Walsh, who wants to make a name for himself, instead of for the benefit of its shareholders.

As a shareholder, given the performance in recent years, I'd fully support the modernisation program and not allowing the staff to destroy the company....

Indeed, the shareholders, the board and the general public all support BA in this process.

Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't with BA?

 

[VeNT]

Perhaps they realised they were being unreasonable between the vote and the strike?

not just that but less than 100% of staff will be part of the union.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

At the moment BA is being run for the benefit of its CEO Willie Walsh, who wants to make a name for himself, instead of for the benefit of its shareholders.

There are similar grumblings against our CEO, Mark Hurd - the hatchet man. By all accounts, he doesn't seem to have long left in the company.

Although I guess the HP dispute is slightly different to BA's - HP made $7.7 billion in profit in the last year. Kinda hard to justify redundancies and pay freezes in that scenario.

 

[scorza]

There are similar grumblings against our CEO, Mark Hurd - the hatchet man. By all accounts, he doesn't seem to have long left in the company.

Although I guess the HP dispute is slightly different to BA's - HP made $7.7 billion in profit in the last year. Kinda hard to justify redundancies and pay freezes in that scenario.

BA made record profits in 2008. Of course, BA's current financial problems wouldn't have anything to do with short-termist management decisions made a couple of years ago to make the '08 figures look better, and BA management certainly wouldn't engineer a distraction to keep attention away from their mistakes would they?

Didn't HP/EDS lose one of their big government contracts a while back?

 

[dannyjo22]

BA made record profits in 2008. Of course, BA's current economic problems wouldn't have anything to do with short-termist management decisions made a couple of years ago to make the '08 figures look better, and BA management certainly wouldn't engineer a distraction to keep attention away from their mistakes would they?

Exactly BA hedged fuel at the wrong time as did Easyjet. This cost them millions, yet the people that make these fuel hedging decisions never get the boot despite a decision that practically wipes out the profitability of the airline.

As the earlier article says BA has more office staff per aircraft than any other airline, perhaps they need to look at that and restructure the offices rather than the 'shop floor'.