NINE YEAR THREAD BUMP: Catholic church and child abuse

[wozzizname]

Being catholics I expect the priests believe that if they repent for their child molesting on their death beds, then God will forgive them.
Personally I think Catholicism is more about power and control than anything else, it certainly seems to have values far removed from those in the bible from what I can see, but then I don't follow any religion.

 

[Naffa]

He has major issues with religion, thinks it's the root of all evil and all that.

It's like claiming a "gun" is evil, an engineered object is evil, no, it's the people who use guns for evil "deeds" are the ones that are evil.

There are non-religious people who do such things, it's got nothing to do with religion, it's just how some people are.

As has already been said, some people are drawn to positions of power so they can do the bad things they want to do, it's common sense really.

Well, in this case, I'd have to disagree with you. Why do you think there are so many clergymen (from all religions) that have been involved in such despicable activities? They force themselves to do, quite possibly, the most unnatural thing imaginable. They force themselves to stop having sex, they're forced not to give in to sexual desires. It creates horrendous sexual repressions and spawns evil and evil doings like we've been hearing about over the last couple of months. It also makes the vow of celibacy look somewhat pointless if it's ok to take part in sexual activities, as long as it's with children. It's a disgrace in every way, from the acts themselves, to the huge cover up operation.

And no, I don't think that religion 'is the root of all evil.' If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

Left to their own devices, good people will strive to do good, evil people will strive to do evil. If you want a good person to do an evil thing, then you need religion.

 

[kylew]

Well, in this case, I'd have to disagree with you. Why do you think there are so many clergymen (from all religions) that have been involved in such despicable activities? They force themselves to do, quite possibly, the most unnatural thing imaginable. They force themselves to stop having sex, they're forced not to give in to sexual desires. It creates horrendous sexual repressions and spawns evil and evil doings like we've been hearing about over the last couple of months. It also makes the vow of celibacy look somewhat pointless if it's ok to take part in sexual activities, as long as it's with children. It's a disgrace in every way, from the acts themselves, to the huge cover up operation.

And no, I don't think that religion 'is the root of all evil.' If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

Left to their own devices, good people will strive to do good, evil people will strive to do evil. If you want a good person to do an evil thing, then you need religion.

Wow that's pathetic.

Seems like you have your own issues that you need to work through.

That's like saying a gun MAKES people do evil things.

What about all those religious folk that aren't evil or don't do evil? Or do they not count because it doesn't coincide with your choice to hate religion and display the fact that you're an atheist at what seems every oppurtunity?

I wouldn't be surprised if you had a FSM tattoo as well. People like you are just as bad as the religious nuts you go on about, but claim everyone who is religious is a religious nut.

 

[RDM]

Why do you think there are so many clergymen (from all religions) that have been involved in such despicable activities? They force themselves to do, quite possibly, the most unnatural thing imaginable. They force themselves to stop having sex, they're forced not to give in to sexual desires. It creates horrendous sexual repressions and spawns evil and evil doings like we've been hearing about over the last couple of months.

There is one major flaw to your reasoning. It being that not all religions enforce a vow of celibacy and yet quite a few still have problems with clergymen abusing children.

 

[kylew]

There is one major flaw to your reasoning. It being that not all religions enforce a vow of celibacy and yet quite a few still have problems with clergymen abusing children.

This too, however I expect both comments to go right over naffa's head as they don't enable him to moan and hate on religion and god.

 

[Briton]

This isn't just a problem with the Catholic Church as it has happened in the Anglican Church too.

No Edward...many other organisations have had paedophiles operated within them but to claim they have the same problem as the Roman Catholic Church is a ludicrous suggestion. The disgraceful cover up and protection of the perpetrators went right to the very top of that disgusting institution.

 

[cjbagnall]

What do you expect from a church run by a nazi?, even the title pope is blasphemous. It means Jesus's shepard and only through the pope you can get to heaven, which goes against the bible teachings.

 

[RDM]

It also doesn't explain the prevelance of sexual abuse by scout leaders, is the scout movement also a religion these days?

Or do you think that a more likely explanation may be that people with such desires gravitate towards positions where they can have access to children?

 

[Naffa]

Wow that's pathetic.

Seems like you have your own issues that you need to work through.

That's like saying a gun MAKES people do evil things.

What about all those religious folk that aren't evil or don't do evil? Or do they not count because it doesn't coincide with your choice to hate religion and display the fact that you're an atheist at what seems every oppurtunity?

Errr... How is that in anyway like saying a gun makes people do evil things? You seem to have come to an assumption about me, posted accordingly, had me correct you, yet you're still posting the same way. When have I ever said everyone practising religion is evil? I'm not going to post what I believe about religion AGAIN, just read it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you had a FSM tattoo as well. People like you are just as bad as the religious nuts you go on about, but claim everyone who is religious is a religious nut.

Wow... I feel like I'm wasting my time somewhat, in replying to this. How am I just as bad as 'the religious nuts I go on about'? I'm not trying to preach anything, I'm not trying to convert anybody. I never even bring the subject of it up, the only time I ever speak about it is if I'm asked, or if a thread comes up.

And just in case it hasn't quite sunk in:

I DO NOT THINK EVERYBODY THAT'S RELIGIOUS IS A 'RELIGIOUS NUT'

There is one major flaw to your reasoning. It being that not all religions enforce a vow of celibacy and yet quite a few still have problems with clergymen abusing children.

Could you give me examples, please? I'm not saying you're wrong, but just for one's own further reasoning.

This too, however I expect both comments to go right over naffa's head as they don't enable him to moan and hate on religion and god.

I don't 'hate God', that would be utterly ridiculous. I don't decide to have a distaste for religion, and then look accordingly for evidence to support that. I look at religion, it's preachments, it's canonical texts, the practice of it's clergymen, and have a distaste for it.

 

[Briton]

He's basically saying that he's read that Catholicism has roots in Pagan and old world religions, and that those in high places of Catholicism aren't "Catholics" in the same way an average "Catholic" person is.

A recent survey in Ireland showed that 60% of the people did not really believe in the Substantiation or the infallibility of the Pope. In reality most 'average Catholics' are actually Protestants.

 

[Deleted member 61728]

I say send them all to the army use them as target practice /cannon fodder and maybe some to the bio weapons testing area .

 

[kylew]

Errr... How is that in anyway like saying a gun makes people do evil things? You seem to have come to an assumption about me, posted accordingly, had me correct you, yet you're still posting the same way. When have I ever said everyone practising religion is evil? I'm not going to post what I believe about religion AGAIN, just read it.

Wow... I feel like I'm wasting my time somewhat, in replying to this. How am I just as bad as 'the religious nuts I go on about'? I'm not trying to preach anything, I'm not trying to convert anybody. I never even bring the subject of it up, the only time I ever speak about it is if I'm asked, or if a thread comes up.

And just in case it hasn't quite sunk in:

I DO NOT THINK EVERYBODY THAT'S RELIGIOUS IS A 'RELIGIOUS NUT'

Could you give me examples, please? I'm not saying you're wrong, but just for one's own further reasoning.

If you want a good person to do an evil thing, then you need religion.

Says otherwise.

You obviously have an irrational problem with religion and you're making claims that bad things that some people do (who may be religious) AS PEOPLE are because of religion.

So how do you explain bad things that committed by non religious people?

 

[kylew]

I don't 'hate God', that would be utterly ridiculous. I don't decide to have a distaste for religion, and then look accordingly for evidence to support that. I look at religion, it's preachments, it's canonical texts, the practice of it's clergymen, and have a distaste for it.

Ah, so when you use the blanket term "religion" you're actually referring to westernised Christianity and its derivatives?

Even if you were, again that's not really "religion" but rather PEOPLE. Considering people such as popes have track records for re-writing "religious scripture" to basically say what they want to say.

 

[Naffa]

Says otherwise.

You obviously have an irrational problem with religion and you're making claims that bad things people do AS PEOPLE are because of religion.

So how do you explain bad things that committed by non religious people?

You don't have a clue what you're talking about...

Just re-read what I've posted, again. You're the one sounding irrational, I'm afraid. You've come to a conclusion about me that's obviously not based on my own beliefs (who better to know this than me, right?) and despite me telling you this, you choose not to accept it. Right...

The part you quoted does not imply at any stage that it makes all good people evil, I would never so stupid as to say such a thing. You've gravely misinterpreted what I've said and what I believe.

EDIT: Let me reply to your ninja edit.

Ah, so when you use the blanket term "religion" you're actually referring to westernised Christianity and its derivatives?

Even if you were, again that's not really "religion" but rather PEOPLE. Considering people such as popes have track records for re-writing "religious scripture" to basically say what they want to say.

No, I don't refer to 'westernised Christianity' when I refer to religion, I refer to all of Christianity, I refer to all of Judaism, I refer to all of Islam, I could go on. One point, among many, to make, would be the concept that it's religious belief, the religious system of worship, and mindlessly following orders, i.e. the desire to be a slave. That's what can cause a lot of the beef I have with religion.

 

[kylew]

You don't have a clue what you're talking about...

Just re-read what I've posted, again. You're the one sounding irrational, I'm afraid. You've come to a conclusion about me that's obviously not based on my own beliefs (who better to know this than me, right?) and despite me telling you this, you choose not to accept it. Right...

The part you quoted does not imply at any stage that it makes all good people evil, I would never so stupid as to say such a thing. You've gravely misinterpreted what I've said and what I believe.

If you think I don't understand your views, you're doing a poor job of making me understand.

Such broad vague statements such as "If you want a good person to do an evil thing, then you need religion." set a sort of "image" of how you obviously perceive religion.

 

[Briton]

Personally, from the PoV of a Catholic (not a hardcore, just a normal lazy one), the Pope should have excommunicated the people involved and the authorities brought in to conduct an investigation into this serious claim instead of this pastoral letter BS.

Bit awkward as he may have had to excommunicate himself as it is the attempted self protection and cover up that is the main issue with the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Naffa]

If you think I don't understand your views, you're doing a poor job of making me understand.

Such broad vague statements such as "If you want a good person to do an evil thing, then you need religion." set a sort of "image" of how you obviously perceive religion.

Of course it's a vague, broad statement, it has to be if you wish to encompass religion. I thought that summed up my view fairly well, but allow me, if you will, to paraphrase a challenge posed by Christopher Hitchens.

Would you be able to name me a moral teaching, or a moral doing committed by the religious, that could not have been by an atheist, or an unbeliever? I don't suspect an answer will ever see the light of day, but I'm open minded. The on the flip side, you're to think of a morally wicked action taken by the religious, that someone who isn't religious wouldn't possibly be able to... And you've already thought of it.

 

[Chimerical]

No, I don't refer to 'westernised Christianity' when I refer to religion, I refer to all of Christianity, I refer to all of Judaism, I refer to all of Islam, I could go on. One point, among many, to make, would be the concept that it's religious belief, the religious system of worship, and mindlessly following orders, i.e. the desire to be a slave. That's what can cause a lot of the beef I have with religion.

People like being told what to do, its just natural behaviour. It's really no different to people buying tabloid newspapers and spouting the headlines as if they were their own opinions.

Even Atheists in America seem to have a new found enthusiasm for leadership and organised movements in the form of people like Richard Dawkins telling them or the supposed unconverted what to do or how to think.

 

[kylew]

Of course it's a vague, broad statement, it has to be if you wish to encompass religion. I thought that summed up my view fairly well, but allow me, if you will, to paraphrase a challenge posed by Christopher Hitchens.

Would you be able to name me a moral teaching, or a moral doing committed by the religious, that could not have been by an atheist, or an unbeliever? I don't suspect an answer will ever see the light of day, but I'm open minded. The on the flip side, you're to think of a morally wicked action taken by the religious, that someone who isn't religious wouldn't possibly be able to... And you've already thought of it.

What's that even supposed to mean?

"Atheists can do just as much good as religious people but Atheists can't perform the atrocities carried out by the religious"

If that's what it's supposed to mean, then what utter and absolute nonsense.

 

[RDM]

Could you give me examples, please? I'm not saying you're wrong, but just for one's own further reasoning.

The fist link is probably the most telling due to it also suggesting a cover up.

Anglicans (who can marry and have kids):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566826/C-of-E-child-abuse-was-ignored-for-decades.html

Islam (Imams can marrry and have kids):
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...-offences/article-1819964-detail/article.html

Hare Krishna are at it too (excuse the wiki link the abuse was from pre-internet times)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...nsciousness#Internal_problems_and_controversy

Plenty more examples too. As well as plenty of examples of non-religious organisations where abuse is prevelant. The common factor seems to be "access to children". Go figure.