MSc the new BSc?

Amp34

Amp34

Amp34

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I may be starting an MSc in the autumn and was generally looking around at various bits and pieces, such as employment rates, and it just seems now that MSc's are becoming what BSc's were 30 years ago. Everyone now has a degree (essentially) and a degree now doesn't mean jack, yet a Masters only means a bit more and will still not "guarantee" you a job.

Now considering you used to be able to go to university at a heavily subsidised rate (grants etc) and BSc's were quite rare and well thought of, we are now starting to get into a situation where you will need to not only pay the £20-30k for an undergrad degree but also the £20k for a MSc before you're likely to get a decent graduate job. That is a massive debt for someone starting their "Adult" life (considering only £15k of that will be a student loan) if they aren't fortunate enough to get a scholarship for either course, especially as the number of masters graduates are becoming greater and greater every year, with scholarships being pressed even more.

We really need to sort this out some way or another as it's starting to get ridiculous, the number of job adverts now that won't even consider you without a masters is rising, which means even those with excellent extra curriculars will be hard pressed to get a decent job with just a BSc, and in the near future I can see even the really popular grad schemes starting to specify a masters minimum (technical areas in a lot of oil companies, eg. BP and Shell already do).
 
tbh phds are the new bsc. Many unis now offer 4 year undergraduate masters which dilute the importance of the proper msc's which are much tougher. Many prefer this as it is easier to get funding for it

sid
 
Higher education is still cheaper though when you compare it to other countries like the US for example.
 
I think the relative difficulty and work required for a degree has probably decreased though. Note, relative. A Bsc can be had fairly easily in a wide range of disciplines, a much larger proportion of people are attending university and further education. The job adverts are simply a shift to accommodate this and ensure that the company is still getting the top X% of graduates.

I know what you mean with regard to finances though. It is a lot of money. I'm in my 3rd year of an undergraduate MSci course now and it hasn't quite sunk in yet just how much this is costing me. The way I see it is that it should pay for itself in the long run as long as I work hard, which I do, and have every intention of doing in the future.
 
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I was thinking of writing something about that actually. There are also quite a number of jobs specifying PHds only too.

The thing with undergrad masters is they aren't actually called MSc's which means they can (and are) differentiated by employers (or at least the ones I've spoken to who said they are essentially thought of as the same as BSc's), however I know what you mean. The undergrad Masters do seem to have a use however, they seem to be a good starting point for a PHd, so you can miss out the seperate (expensive) MSc which is becoming more and more mandatory for PHd's (this is according to my old lecturers).
 
Masters programs are nothing more than cash cows for many Universities. Lots of 3rd year undergraduates don't like the idea of getting a job (or can't get a job), and quite like the idea of extending their University lifestyle for another year. Universities are willing to facilitate this, at a cost.
 
Lots of people have a Degree. Few people have good Degree.

Lots of people seem to have "business sutdies" or "media studies" or "sport science", whilst they are degrees, I don't think you can compare them to a Mathematics degree from a top uni with a good classification. imo.
 
Amp34 said:
I was thinking of writing something about that actually. There are also quite a number of jobs specifying PHds only too.

The thing with undergrad masters is they aren't actually called MSc's which means they can (and are) differentiated by employers (or at least the ones I've spoken to who said they are essentially thought of as the same as BSc's), however I know what you mean. The undergrad Masters do seem to have a use however, they seem to be a good starting point for a PHd, so you can miss out the seperate (expensive) MSc which is becoming more and more mandatory for PHd's (this is according to my old lecturers).
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I'm currently doing an undergrad masters (MSci) and that's pretty much what I've been told too: an MSci or similar makes a good starting point for a PhD, while an MSc is better for immediate employment.

I do agree that degrees seem to be becoming devalued, although I think it certainly makes a difference what your degree is (but perhaps not in the right way).

That said, you could look at it the other way and say that if your only concern is to get a job then you shouldn't be going to university! I think a degree should be undertaken largely for its own sake, not for the career prospects you might get from it.
 
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Moses99p said:
Getting an undergraduate degree, in a well thought of subject, from a Russell Group university is still viewed well, surely? In my opinion it's the proliferation of "Mickey Mouse" degrees at "Mickey Mouse" universities which are seemingly cheapening the "degree" label (but it only cheapens it on the surface, because people still know which universities/degrees are worthwhile).

I guess more people are doing masters now because they realise they need to top up their degree from a questionable university, and funding systems such as career development loans open up this possibility for many.

/guesswork
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I did my degree in a physical science from a reasonable uni (top half, just) and it hasn't necessarily helped me. The problem is it is quite difficult for recruiters to know now quite how good a course is (even from a Russell uni) if they are just looking for someone with a generic degree. Also a BSc from even Cambridge/Oxford may not help when more and more companies are looking for people with a (full) masters minimum.
 
I just left Uni last year, and am currently workingin a fcatory making aerosols. Not what I had in mind. It was a BSc course, but I'm now in around £20K debt. Moving back home with the paents is looking more and more inviting.
 
Amp34 said:
I was thinking of writing something about that actually. There are also quite a number of jobs specifying PHds only too.

The thing with undergrad masters is they aren't actually called MSc's which means they can (and are) differentiated by employers (or at least the ones I've spoken to who said they are essentially thought of as the same as BSc's), however I know what you mean. The undergrad Masters do seem to have a use however, they seem to be a good starting point for a PHd, so you can miss out the seperate (expensive) MSc which is becoming more and more mandatory for PHd's (this is according to my old lecturers).
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Indeed, I think that last point is correct. I'm doing an undergrad MSci as I'm undecided as to whether to pursue a PHd afterwards. This will depend on my final year project I think. If I decide against it, I still have an undergrad MSci though, which is not bad at all. In fact, the BSc and MSci in the 3rd year is quite different on my course, with the MSci being a fair bit more work (not including the extra year of study, which is challenging) and with a higher level of difficulty. The department will not allow progress onto a 4-year undergraduate degree without at least a consistent 2:1 standard or higher in the previous year(s). I attend a well-respected department at a well-respected university though. I can see how this may differ in other places, where the university could 'extend' the BSc rather than develop upon it.
 
Sukh said:
Lots of people have a Degree. Few people have good Degree.

Lots of people seem to have "business sutdies" or "media studies" or "sport science", whilst they are degrees, I don't think you can compare them to a Mathematics degree from a top uni with a good classification. imo.
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That's the problem, how do you differentiate a good degree from a bad one? Yeah we know about picking from a Russell Uni etc, but for a lot of degrees that isn't very useful, for a variety of reasons. With more and more people having masters why not just employ them instead...

Inquisitor said:
I'm currently doing an undergrad masters (MSci) and that's pretty much what I've been told too: an MSci or similar makes a good starting point for a PhD, while an MSc is better for immediate employment.
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I have a few of friends who will be graduating this summer with MSci's (doing the extra year on my course) and a couple of them are trying to do just that, essentially trying to build on top of their 4th year research project.
 
Amp34 said:
That's the problem, how do you differentiate a good degree from a bad one? Yeah we know about picking from a Russell Uni etc, but for a lot of degrees that isn't very useful, for a variety of reasons. With more and more people having masters why not just employ them instead...
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1st Class Bachelors in Mathematics from UCL > Masters in Media Relations from XZY Polytechnic turned uni.

I know there will be a lot of situations that are not clear cut, but in my experience, a lot of recruitment is about the potential of the recruit and their personality and traits and less about what he/she already knows.
 
When I was at Uni a lot of friends who did Bachelors degrees in English, History etc, realised that they were going to be unemployable so started on 1 year MSc degrees in IT.

An MSc is for slackers who don't or can't get into work after getting their initial Bachelors degree and know they aren't good enough to go for a proper post graduate degree like a PhD. Employers aren't fooled by this.
 
exhashdotdot said:
It's quite scary considering I'm quite interested in doing in a masters in physics at Imperial or Cambridge after finishing my degree.
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As long as you enjoy the subject and if doing the masters to help with employability choose one that will it'll be fine I think.

The masters I have apparently been accepted for (although I'm not sure about funding approval yet) is very well regarded so hopefully I *should* be ok, however those doing other masters may not be so from the shouds of it.

I almost applied for the same course at Imperial but missed the funding deadline.:o It's a bit odd really as all the others at the open day I went to had applied to Imperial and another Uni as the 3 courses are that close.:p
 
Does anyone have data to hand on how many BSc, 4-year UG degrees, MSc, PhD were awarded each year?

Say (and I haven't looked this up at all) today 4% of folk get PhDs, how far back in time do we have to go such that only 4% got first degrees? 1960? 1950?
 
Sukh said:
1st Class Bachelors in Mathematics from UCL > Masters in Media Relations from XZY Polytechnic turned uni.

I know there will be a lot of situations that are not clear cut, but in my experience, a lot of recruitment is about the potential of the recruit and their personality and traits and less about what he/she already knows.
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But what if it is semi automated? No masters? *Bin*... Or for a position that is customer facing.:p

However I do understand what you mean, I'm just not sure in the future if it will be as clear cut as that.
 
I think that the Mickey Mouse degree is having the largest impact on the integrity of degrees. I do not believe that MSc is considered mandatory although it is in some fields. However, degrees such as engineering, physics etc are well respected. Many oil companies require a good 2:1 bachelors degree if you want to be a petroleum engineer. Geoscientists seem to always require an MSc.
 
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