valves or transistor amplifiers?

Soldato
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hi guys,

i'm just looking for a few opinions into what people prefer in terms of audio quality between a transistor amp and valve amp when listening to music

cheers

:)
 
That's not a straightforward question. I've heard both types sound both brilliant and rubbish.
IMO the key element is synergy with the speakers being driven. Speakers are the most personal choice in buying a system and have the biggest v****nces in presentation styles. They also have big differences in their sensitivity and the difficulty of the load presented to the driving amplifier.

So for example, I wouldn't chose a low powered valve amp to drive most of the smaller standmounts, as they'll tend to not have the welly to do the job. I'd avoid using some of the more forward transistor amps with some of the more efficient horns, as you'll typically end up with something that will rip your ears off.

Personally I prefer not to think of your amp on it's own, but as a partner with it's speaker. Good combos that I've heard include:
- Some average powered valve amps with 95db horns (eg. some of the Wad Kt88s)
- Low powered valve amps (e.g. EL34s & 300Bs) driving 100db Tannoys
- Active speakers using built in transistor amps like the ATC and PMC kit
 
thank you for your very concise answer. now you're causing me more problems :)

the reason i ask this is i'm doing my dissertation on subjective and objective differences in valve/transistor amps, and all you've done is open up a whole new can of worms! i've only got a 10,000 word limit ya know ;)

anyway, yes, i agree different combinations of speaker/amp yield a large difference in their sonic attributes, so does your source to a fairly large extent.

now, my main query taking into account your reply, on average could you say that the majority of valve or transistor amps sound better?

many thanks :)
 
Are the majority of pieces of string long or short ? ......

Would it better to understand the key difference in using and owning each, and the limitation or advantages they can offer.

Valves would be no use in my setup, as I tend use multi amp active systems that have smaller drive units in the speakers. I also like fast transient response and tight clean sound. Which transistor amps are more suited to.
 
yes, i agree transistors give a tighter sound, but do you feel this is a clinical sound? valves in contrast give you warmth and richness.

the be all and end all, i suppose, is do you prefer the cleaner, tighter sound than a warm, deep sound? (obviously 9designs2, you prefer the tighter sound :))

thank you for your response
 
I generally prefer the sound of valve amps, although of course there is a lot variation between the good and bad ones. Whether this is because I prefer the distortions introduced by valve amps to the more accurate reproduction from a more clinical transistor amp is a valid question though.
For what it's worth I'm currently using a Roksan transistor amp as I can't afford the better valve jobbies at the moment.
 
Well there's plenty of data available regarding the performance of valve amps, though you might need to dig around a bit.
Some of the high end kit that would be worth trying to get performance data on would be units from groups like Kondo, Wavac and Audionote, they tend to focus on lower powered amps. More ballsy units worth investigating would be from McIntosh and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). Closer to home, checkout the stuff from EAR and WAD.

With regard to how bad these are, well do remember that valve amps were pretty much dead in the water a few years ago, with the exception of the real high end stuff that I've suggested some links to. It's only more recently that there's been a big resurgence with the new and cheap Chinese kit (eg. Consonance).
Against that, transistor amps exist at pretty much every price point, meaning that there's masses of cheapo dross transistor amps, aswell as the better stuff. So if you had to apply statistics, I guess that the mean price for transistor amplifiers sold would be MUCH lower.

Simply asking the question of "which is better", is therefore a bit irrelevant.
What might be a more interesting question would be "which is better at some specific price points", e.g. £100, £200, £400, £800 etc.
You could then also take into account speakers that they might well be paired at for those price points.

Lastly, there's a variety of different tube types and implementations out there. E.g. 2A3s, EL34s, KT88s, 300Bs, 805s etc. From what I've read, all of them have their own compromises, e.g. 2A3s are very lowered power, but supposedly sound great. KT88 are actually quite powerful and are capable of being used in 50watt amps, often sounding at least as punch as a good transistor amp. With regards to implementation, check on how groups like Wavac do things differently to other groups.

Hope that helps. Other forums that you might wish to look at for data include:
Zerogain, Hifiwigwam, Pinkfish, WorldAudioDesigns.
 
I guess I am a little bit biased as I bought this today :), sorry for the rubbish pictures.

DSCN0564.JPG


DSCN0565.JPG


As said, there is quite a distict sound from valve amplifiers which can sound very beguiling but this can vary a lot. From your low powered single ended class A with zero feedback to mine which is a push pull running on EEC82,83 and KT88 which retains the valve warmth and airyness yet has punch (70Wpc). This amp is more than happy driving a pair of the tiny Diapason Karis which have a sensitivity of 87dB during my audition of the amp.

Valve amps in general are pretty expensive compared to transistor amps due to the large transformers (power and output) it needs and they chuck out tons of heat. Nearly gave myself a hernia carrying mine up to the loft room as it weighs around 35kgs !!

I do like transistor amps aswell, having just gone from my Audio Analogue Puccini SE. IMO transistor amps can and do sound fantastic but valve amps can make music sound beautiful.
 
Now that is seriously sexy! I like.

Thanks, I love it. Even the wife thinks it sounds and looks fantastic and shes not really interested in hifi at all. Got it for £3k (£4400 retail) as its been to a couple of demos at hifi shows and a review at some hifi magazine.
 
You can get transistors not only to be tight and grippy, but also have smoothness and refinement and sound sweet..... Same as you can get valves to be punchy and not warm and woolly.... problem is it gets expensive to have either that is master of all tricks....

Anyway to keep the balance, here's a nice transistor picture of the preamp I collected just be Christmas, with the matching power amp below .... :-)))

KK-KCT.jpg
 
Well there's plenty of data available regarding the performance of valve amps, though you might need to dig around a bit.
Some of the high end kit that would be worth trying to get performance data on would be units from groups like Kondo, Wavac and Audionote, they tend to focus on lower powered amps. More ballsy units worth investigating would be from McIntosh and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). Closer to home, checkout the stuff from EAR and WAD.

With regard to how bad these are, well do remember that valve amps were pretty much dead in the water a few years ago, with the exception of the real high end stuff that I've suggested some links to. It's only more recently that there's been a big resurgence with the new and cheap Chinese kit (eg. Consonance).
Against that, transistor amps exist at pretty much every price point, meaning that there's masses of cheapo dross transistor amps, aswell as the better stuff. So if you had to apply statistics, I guess that the mean price for transistor amplifiers sold would be MUCH lower.

Simply asking the question of "which is better", is therefore a bit irrelevant.
What might be a more interesting question would be "which is better at some specific price points", e.g. £100, £200, £400, £800 etc.
You could then also take into account speakers that they might well be paired at for those price points.

Lastly, there's a variety of different tube types and implementations out there. E.g. 2A3s, EL34s, KT88s, 300Bs, 805s etc. From what I've read, all of them have their own compromises, e.g. 2A3s are very lowered power, but supposedly sound great. KT88 are actually quite powerful and are capable of being used in 50watt amps, often sounding at least as punch as a good transistor amp. With regards to implementation, check on how groups like Wavac do things differently to other groups.

Hope that helps. Other forums that you might wish to look at for data include:
Zerogain, Hifiwigwam, Pinkfish, WorldAudioDesigns.

many thanks for that, lots of information which will help me greatly :)

I guess I am a little bit biased as I bought this today :), sorry for the rubbish pictures.

As said, there is quite a distict sound from valve amplifiers which can sound very beguiling but this can vary a lot. From your low powered single ended class A with zero feedback to mine which is a push pull running on EEC82,83 and KT88 which retains the valve warmth and airyness yet has punch (70Wpc). This amp is more than happy driving a pair of the tiny Diapason Karis which have a sensitivity of 87dB during my audition of the amp.

Valve amps in general are pretty expensive compared to transistor amps due to the large transformers (power and output) it needs and they chuck out tons of heat. Nearly gave myself a hernia carrying mine up to the loft room as it weighs around 35kgs !!

I do like transistor amps aswell, having just gone from my Audio Analogue Puccini SE. IMO transistor amps can and do sound fantastic but valve amps can make music sound beautiful.

thank you for your response. lovely bit of kit you've got there!

You can get transistors not only to be tight and grippy, but also have smoothness and refinement and sound sweet..... Same as you can get valves to be punchy and not warm and woolly.... problem is it gets expensive to have either that is master of all tricks....

Anyway to keep the balance, here's a nice transistor picture of the preamp I collected just be Christmas, with the matching power amp below .... :-)))

thank you for your response also.

if anyone else would like to chip in, it'd be greatly appreciated. i'm trying to get as many responses from a few forums as possible, as this will greatly aid my research.

once again, thank you all for your contributions :)
 
As Mr_Sukebe said earlier its all about system synergy. You could always mix and match, for e.g. I have a valve pre-amp, a solid-state power amp and a pair of loudspeakers which were voiced for valve amps and I'm happy with the sound.

In general, I think valves are a little more fussy about partnering components and to get the best out of them you have to work a little harder. They can also be noiser than solid state components (tube rush) and, in my experience, less reliable. So, if anyone is thinking of getting a valve amp, I'd suggest you ensure you, or your dealer knows a good engineer who can repair them!

To complicate things further, as someone said earlier. different types of valves sound different. For eg, I once owned a 300B power amp - great with vocals and easy listening, but a slight lack of punch for rock/heavy metal!
 
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I guess I am a little bit biased as I bought this today :), sorry for the rubbish pictures.

DSCN0564.JPG


DSCN0565.JPG


As said, there is quite a distict sound from valve amplifiers which can sound very beguiling but this can vary a lot. From your low powered single ended class A with zero feedback to mine which is a push pull running on EEC82,83 and KT88 which retains the valve warmth and airyness yet has punch (70Wpc). This amp is more than happy driving a pair of the tiny Diapason Karis which have a sensitivity of 87dB during my audition of the amp.

Valve amps in general are pretty expensive compared to transistor amps due to the large transformers (power and output) it needs and they chuck out tons of heat. Nearly gave myself a hernia carrying mine up to the loft room as it weighs around 35kgs !!

I do like transistor amps aswell, having just gone from my Audio Analogue Puccini SE. IMO transistor amps can and do sound fantastic but valve amps can make music sound beautiful.

This brings back memories of my old Unison Research SR -1, an 80-watt hybrid stereo amplifier which had the musicality backed up with some real control. Being fed from a Heart modified Marantz CDP and running a set of Rega XEL's it was amazing for the cost.
 
I listen to all types of music except classical. Nothing against valves, but I think you need to an enthusiast to live with them. Needing more special awareness than a fit and forget transistor amp.
 
I'm also a big fan of valves, got a valve power amp and valve DAC. For me it's not that they differ greatly in tone, I also have an arcam solid state power amp and it sounds almost identical in tone, but the valve amp (audio research vs55) just sounds so much more natural and real. The whole midrange opens up with the valve amp, especially with vocals. Going back to the solid state amp, vocals just sound broken. The valve amp is much smoother sounding in the high frequencies, but it's more revealing than the solid state amp, so it's not that's it's presenting un overly warm inaccurate "tube" sound. To my ears my valve amp has a fairly neutral sound with a furious attack and great rhythmic punch (it's a 50watt push-pull similar in design to the unison rearch above).

I'm not an engineer, so I don't know why they sound better, but I don't believe that I'm simply hearing "nice" distortions. If anything sounds distorted to me, it's the vast majority of solid state amps. I've read about class AB and class D transistor amps suffering from switching distortions as the transistors turn on and off - and is why pure class A transistor amps sound so sweet as they, like valve amps don't suffer from switching distortion, due to the transistors being turned on all the time - and why they get so hot! I've also read that valve amps clip much more softly than transistor amps do. It's accepted that in most music and with your average 85-90dB speaker (and with all but the monster powered super amps), the amp will be regularly clipping during transients which in transistor amps results in a hardening of the sound, but not so in valve amps. Just to reiterate, this might not be fact, it's just stuff I've read in various articles. It could all be nonsense, but to me it offers an explanation as to why many people prefer the sound of tubes.

I also listen to mostly rock, but also loads of other stuff including plenty of breakbeat and electro dance-y stuff.

Oh, and I'll join in with the pics!

DSC00424.jpg
 
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