Teaching Hours and new Teaching Strike?

[No1newts]

Sorry if this is a repost.

Apoligies as I cannot find a linkie but I heard on the news that teachers will be considering strike action based on their working hours. Essentially saying that they should only be contracted to a 35 hour contract per week.

What are peoples opinions on this?

Personally I agree/disagree with the situation.

My lass is a teacher so I see first hand how many hours she has to work and quite frankly its ridiculous.

I work a 50 hour a week contract but she works a lot more than. She is in the school 8-4 Monday to Friday, every evening she does a minimum of 2 hours work be it marking/planning and then on a Sunday she generally does between 4-6 hours work again on marking or planning. This equates to a working week 54-56 hours.

Now consider the payment for this, she has only been full time just over 2 years (this is her third full year) and earns 22.5k. This is for a 50+ hour week, currently im earning more than double this amount for 50 hours.

In a few years she will be on mid twenties, a bit more than that but if someon asked me to work the hours she works for less than 30k they would be getting short shrift.

Lets be honest here as well its not as if its some mickey mouse public sector job like the a hell of a lot of them are these days. If she is crap at her job (which she isnt) kids futures can be effected. She has to perform and do well at her job or it does have a consequence.

Its no wonder people who are well qualified tend to opt away from the teaching profession. Long hours and poor pay? No thanks. The only thing the job has going for it is the pension.

Now me and the lass have discussed this and whilst the hours annoy her (she has considered quitting as she is constantly working to (at times) the detriment of our social life together) but she likes the job and she likes teaching.

She is in favour of the 35 hour week, which I would be but to her it would be 35 a week teaching time with 5-10 hours per week PPA (forgot what it stands for, its what teachers call planning and marking time) to be completed in the school. So essentially a 35-45 hour a week contract which would then let her complete her work in work with little carry over to effect her own time. This is what I think would be a good solution, not reducing classtime (which a blanket 35 hour contract would do) but reducing overall working time and building the extra work which is always done at home just to keep up into a normal working day.

The drawbacks to this (and probably why it would never happen) is that it would require further investment from the government either so that there is more teachers or teaching assistants in the school who could cover the lessons whilst teachers have their PPA time.

So what does everyone think? Are teachers underpaid and overworked or do you personally think the oppisiate?

Having seen it firsthand teachers are overworked and horribly underpaid considering the importance of the profession. Though I am sure some will disagree with me

 

[I get around]

Overworked and underpaid, they always have been.

Trouble is parents don't raise their kids to be respectful these days, not just chavs, just generally, if your kid does something wrong you give them a clout round the ear or an appropriate punishment. New age parenting is stupidity.
So now kids don't respect the teachers, parents don't even respect the teachers half the time.
And teachers are too scared to punish the kids properly because it puts them at risk legally.

This I believe has pushed it over the edge, you'd get ****ed off if you're teaching a bunch of rude, disrespectful individuals.

Personally I think teachers should be well within their rights to go, you know what, you don't care about getting a FREE education, your parents don't care about your FREE education. Bugger off, you get no handouts any more.

 

[James J]

Whilst I can empathise with the situation, will the strike situation ever stop? Once you get what you actually want, give it a few years and it usually starts again lol. BA and NR strikes being an example of this.

The thing with teaching is, you KNOW what your letting yourself in for unless you have walked into it blindly (which is amazingly retarded) so the hours and pay shouldn't be too much of a shock to the system. However, I do agree that a payrise is needed to atleast run with inflation and perhaps even a bonus scheme where if you finish your marking etc in school hours/within a week you get a cash bonus (undetermined amount).

Often a problem with education is the turn around times for things getting marked and then the quality of feedback which the student actually gets after this length of time. That would directly address that problem whilst giving the teachers a reason to do it.

Just my 2c

 

[Dolph]

Work smarter, not harder?

I'm far from convinced our education system is at all efficient.

Unfortunately, while it is run in a top down, dictatorial, monopolistic fashion, it won't change, because most teachers have no option other than to accept it.

 

[No1newts]

Whilst I can empathise with the situation, will the strike situation ever stop? Once you get what you actually want, give it a few years and it usually starts again lol. BA and NR strikes being an example of this.

The thing with teaching is, you KNOW what your letting yourself in for unless you have walked into it blindly (which is amazingly retarded) so the hours and pay shouldn't be too much of a shock to the system. However, I do agree that a payrise is needed to atleast run with inflation and perhaps even a bonus scheme where if you finish your marking etc in school hours/within a week you get a cash bonus (undetermined amount).

Often a problem with education is the turn around times for things getting marked and then the quality of feedback which the student actually gets after this length of time. That would directly address that problem whilst giving the teachers a reason to do it.

Just my 2c

Sorry I thought I had said above. Im not in favour of her striking for this, she doesnt want to strike either, she would probably spend the whole time marking I hate striking end of.

The thread was more a comment on their working situation and how I think it should change rather than a pro/con debate of whether they should strike.

Cause they bloody well shouldnt!

Work smarter, not harder?

I'm far from convinced our education system is at all efficient.

Unfortunately, while it is run in a top down, dictatorial, monopolistic fashion, it won't change, because most teachers have no option other than to accept it.

It is completely inefficent Dolph. Her time is spent ticking boxes and completing lesson plans (which are never looked at) so government targets are met rather than doing anything constructive for the pupils benefit.

 

[Tummy]

Wrong thread.

Fail.

 

[James J]

Sorry I thought I had said above. Im not in favour of her striking for this, she doesnt want to strike either, she would probably spend the whole time marking I hate striking end of.

The thread was more a comment on their working situation and how I think it should change rather than a pro/con debate of whether they should strike.

Cause they bloody well shouldnt!



It is completely inefficent Dolph. Her time is spent ticking boxes and completing lesson plans (which are never looked at) so government targets are met rather than doing anything constructive for the pupils benefit.

Fairplay, I also don't condone strike action as its just detrimental in any field it takes place in. We'll have to see how it pans out though. My mothers cousin is a supply teacher and he earns quite a high wage just from having to do travelling but then doesn't really have marking and other "take home work" to actually do. The money saved from actually employing these people at the schools permanently instead of paying a few days large salary often is probably better in the long run.

An example of this in a different sector is pharmacy. Hospitals regularly employ agency pharmacists to fill staff shortages and keep them for a few months until they can find suitable replacements. I've seen one employed for over a year on well over £100k salary who didn't have to work weekends, nor do call out whilst the other pharmacists doing the same job where on £35k~ and had the callout/weekends to do on a rota basis.

That sort of "business practise" should be nipped in the bud in my opinion.

 

[RDM]

While the pay is not brilliant (it does however get better) you have to figure in the whole package. So pension and, above all, holidays. And while I know enough teachers to know that some work needs to be done in the holidays they do tend to get considerably more free time than most professions.

I am looking at moving in to teaching myself (first step, degree...) and am fully aware of the hours, the pay and the expected workload. If I am aware of it up front prior to joining the profession complaining about it once I become a teacher seems a bit...silly.

 

[starfighter]

I had a teacher who made us copy out from a text book for about 6 months. It stopped for a few weeks after parents evening but then she simply wrote it on the board instead.

We used to rub it off just to annoy her so at least she had to write it again every day instead of using it for weeks.

I assume lesson plans are an attempt to stop this thing but obviously don't work. Dunno what the answer is.


As said the holidays make up for it anyway, a lot of teachers did extra marking during summer for exam boards, can't exactly be devoid of free time and obviously the potential to become a supply teacher.

 

[dangerstat]

Having seen it firsthand teachers are overworked and horribly underpaid considering the importance of the profession. Though I am sure some will disagree with me

I think teachers are adequately paid. They do have excellent holidays and in fairness I think marking aside they do work more favorable hours than the rest of us. It's especially great for women who want children.

To be a teacher you need a 2.2 from any university then a PGCE (IIRC?) so basically I can graduate from boghampton university in creative studies with terrible Alevels/GCSE's and get funded to do my PGCE and then be earning 30k without 6 years. I can't think of another industry where you'd get that much money with potentially such a mediocre background. I guess the truth is (like so many areas in the public sphere) that there will be talented teachers who deserve more, and waste of spacers who deserve less. Unfortunately the system wont pay them differently and that's the real problem I guess.

 

[Dolph]

It is completely inefficent Dolph. Her time is spent ticking boxes and completing lesson plans (which are never looked at) so government targets are met rather than doing anything constructive for the pupils benefit.

Indeed, and these regulations are a poor attempt to address the structural flaws in our education setup without actually trying to fix them.

Schools and teachers need independence, and a chance to differentiate, and parents need the facility to choose. only then will we start to see real improvements in education.

 

[BoomAM]

Overworked and underpaid, they always have been.

Some are. Most arnt.

Work smarter, not harder?

This sums it up.
I work in a school so i see it first hand.
If they spent as much time working 'smartly' rarther than whining it wouldnt be as bad as it is frankly.
They are given lots and lots of resources, from computing gear to assistants, ect; but because 90% of them are too stubborn and afraid of trying something new, they stick with old methods which hold them back from saving themselves time and effort.

And underpayed!? Hardly!
They get pay bumps every year to 27k for doing sweet FA different from day 1, then they have an interview known as 'threshold' to prove they can teach, then their limit is 35k before they have to take 'management' courses to get on a SMT.

Technically they are ment to 'prove' each year they can teach to get the paybumps, but because of the politics, it just gets rubber stamped in 99% of academic establishments.

How many other industries can you get 'free' pay bumps from 19k to 27k without actually improving much? And most of the time upto 35k for just proving you can A) do your job & B) can persuade enough colleagues to convince your boss that your ace?

Whilst i do agree that some teachers do work their socks off for their pay for nothing, the vast majority of them are whining slackers who hardly do much, then complain at the smallest amount of extra work that does fall under their job description anyway!.
Ive worked in several schools and been an observer in just as many, and throughout that time, i can name the number of 'proper teachers', who are worthy of being called one and could actually complain with reason, on one hand.

Although the amount of rubberstampted paperwork they have to do is a little silly at times. All those IEPs, status reports, ect; Tbh, i really dont think most parents give two hoots tbh, most appear to put confidence in the school to tell them if something is actually wrong. But as mentioned by someone else, its just to meet goverment targets.

My comments are all aimed at GCSE level teachers. The level where most of the stuff they do is done for them. All they need do is 'teach' (present) it to a class.
Where as other levels, like A-Level, Degree, ect; the teachers have do do a dam sight more work.

/rant

 

[Ripper]

Working in a school and working in a school as a teacher are two massively different things.

I've done both and you don't see the crap teachers have to deal with until you actually do it.

 

[Raumarik]

I wouldn't support a teaching strike. In the last 10 years pay has rocketed for teachers, they've had teaching assistants brought into class rooms and the number of support teachers seems to have shot up also.

I would however like to see red tape and administration reduced, they do too much of it, as well as the amount of tests for pupils and box ticking for staff reduced also. Lets face it, most of it does nothing for the student.

I don't agree with the theory that most or all teachers work long hours, my friends who are teachers certainly don't, even the ones in senior positions. My dad was a teacher as are two of my aunts, again none of them do the hours that seem to be regularly claimed due to the amount of prep time they've got during working hours.

If teachers are so unhappy about their working conditions they should change career - lets face it we have more teachers than teaching posts, not like we'd struggle to fill them.

 

[No1newts]

Indeed, and these regulations are a poor attempt to address the structural flaws in our education setup without actually trying to fix them.

Schools and teachers need independence, and a chance to differentiate, and parents need the facility to choose. only then will we start to see real improvements in education.

They just need to be allowed to teach.

A lot of teachers just want to teach (evidence I get off the lass herself and her group of teaching friends) but they are not allowed to do this through the importance the government give over a correctly fille dout form over a well taught class.

A system is flawed when it palces so much more focus on things other than the actual job itself, to teach the kids. Its like asking a firefighter to stop putting out that fire until he has made an action plan about how he intends to fight the fire and what his future plans are after he has finished putting out the fire (an extreme example but you get the point)

 

[philjohn]

Work smarter, not harder?

I'm far from convinced our education system is at all efficient.

Unfortunately, while it is run in a top down, dictatorial, monopolistic fashion, it won't change, because most teachers have no option other than to accept it.

It's not about working smarter. To plan lessons to the level required (and individualised to the class and/or students - it's not like when were were at school and the teachers had been using the same lesson plan for 20 years) as well as do all the paperwork (AFL docs and the like) simply takes a ridiculous amount of time.

 

[BoomAM]

Working in a school and working in a school as a teacher are two massively different things.

I've done both and you don't see the crap teachers have to deal with until you actually do it.

Lately though?
Considering how they are all whining about how things are lately?

The only thing most of them can complain about lately is the extra paperwork thats being forced upon them. BUT their pay arguably justifys it.

The entire school system needs shaking up from top to bottom. From the initiatives from goverment level, pay and responsibilites for everyone, whats reported, ect;

 

[philjohn]

They get pay bumps every year to 27k for doing sweet FA different from day 1, then they have an interview known as 'threshold' to prove they can teach, then their limit is 35k before they have to take 'management' courses to get on a SMT.

That just shows how little you know. Filling out the form with the relevant proof for getting threshold took my wife a few hours a night for 6 or 7 days. It was something like 8-10 pages long and required plenty of evidence to back up the request for passing through threshold.

I have lots of teachers in my family and they all work damn hard for OK, but not terrific, pay.

 

[Amp34]

While the pay is not brilliant (it does however get better) you have to figure in the whole package. So pension and, above all, holidays. And while I know enough teachers to know that some work needs to be done in the holidays they do tend to get considerably more free time than most professions.

I am looking at moving in to teaching myself (first step, degree...) and am fully aware of the hours, the pay and the expected workload. If I am aware of it up front prior to joining the profession complaining about it once I become a teacher seems a bit...silly.

This.

Teaching is one of those jobs that you cant just look at hours per week:salary ratio. They have a large amount of time "off" as such and so unlike most jobs don't do a regular set of hours throughout the year. Instead you need to work out the number of hours over the year and work out an average, which will probably be a reasonable amount lower.

As an example there are people who work for 6 weeks straight (eg no days off), on 12 hour days (so 84 hour weeks) in not very nice conditions, a lot of these people will only be on £20k for the first couple of years, however they get about 3 weeks off after each 6. That increases their pay from a technical £5~ an hour to around £8. Same with teachers, who will technically get around 13 weeks off (although they will work some of that time), the £22k starting salary for "50 hours" weeks doesn't seem that bad any more does it?

The other option is teachers could go onto the same system that TA's do, who get paid for only the weeks they work, and not school holiday periods. I'm guessing they wouldn't like that either (A friend of mine does this and is in work from 8-4 weekdays during term time and gets paid £9k, teacher pay seems quite a lot considering...)

 

[BoomAM]

That just shows how little you know. Filling out the form with the relevant proof for getting threshold took my wife a few hours a night for 6 or 7 days. It was something like 8-10 pages long and required plenty of evidence to back up the request for passing through threshold.

Dont presume that you can speak for all teachers and situations everywhere because your family has teachers in it.
The same way i havnt myself. Which is why i havnt made sweeping comments, ive said most, because in my experiance most is about right for what ive seen. Perhaps the members of your family are outside of that and are in the minority that are good at what they do and havnt had things on a silver platter for them. I dont know them, so i cant and wont comment on that. But of the many teachers ive come accross, met, and worked with, my comments hold true.

Ive seen the evidence packs they have to do myself, and whilst they are longer than the average IEPs, doing a 8-10 page info pack for evidence is not exactely rocket science compared to some of the reports other people have to do in their professions, for less money.

Regardless of your thoughts, i stand by my comments, in most cases, thresholds are rubber stamped. Ive seen it happen in several schools thus far.