Wikileaks releases apache footage.

trent said:
If there was nothing wrong with what happened why did they cover it up and tell a completely differnt story?
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Probably because regular citizens who don't deal with actual warfare on a day to day basis would almost certainly over-react to things which are no doubt fairly common place to the soldiers actually involved. Especially when they (the general public) don't have all the evidence in front of them - e.g. detailed intel of what had been happening in that area on that day etc

Judging by the reaction to the release of this video, it seems they were probably right to think that.
 
tedmaul said:
Probably because regular citizens who don't deal with actual warfare on a day to day basis would almost certainly over-react to things which are no doubt fairly common place to the soldiers actually involved. Especially when they (the general public) don't have all the evidence in front of them - e.g. detailed intel of what had been happening in that area on that day etc

Judging by the reaction to the release of this video, it seems they were probably right to think that.
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I think you're missing the points here.

Some innocent people were killed. This is sad, and unfortunately in situations like Iraq, these things can all to easily happen. What the shame here seems to though, is why it's taken a leaked video to get to the truth behind these innocent peoples deaths.

Now ontop of this, and why the video is really shocking is the mentality of the pilots involved. They seem utterly cold and detached and TBH taking some entertainment while killing other people. One has to question such peoples judgement given such an approach to their work?

So this raises huge question marks around the attack on the people-carrier that then followed... It seemed to offer no threat, seemed only interested in helping the wounded, they had no idea who these individuals were (could have been passing doctors for all they knew), but none the less, more entertainment seemed only a push of a button away!

"All right... Ha ha... I hit him..."
 
NeilFawcett said:
I think you're missing the points here.

Some innocent people were killed. This is sad, and unfortunately in situations like Iraq, these things can all to easily happen. What the shame here seems to though, is why it's taken a leaked video to get to the truth behind these innocent peoples deaths.

Now ontop of this, and why the video is really shocking is the mentality of the pilots involved. They seem utterly cold and detached and TBH taking some entertainment while killing other people. One has to question such peoples judgement given such an approach to their work?

So this raises huge question marks around the attack on the people-carrier that then followed... It seemed to offer no threat, seemed only interested in helping the wounded, they had no idea who these individuals were (could have been passing doctors for all they knew), but none the less, more entertainment seemed only a push of a button away!

"All right... Ha ha... I hit him..."
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I have no experience of war myself, so can only comment based on books and documentaries i've read/watched, but their attitude is entirely what i expected of people that do what they do.

I can't see how you could be anything other than detached and cold towards your targets given what you have to do and what you have to see every single day. If they were sympathetic, empathetic or spent any time doubting what they had to do then they would put themselves and their colleagues in danger. They are trained to be this way imo.
 
Surfer said:
absolutely shocking. :( just sick....

They said they had rpgs and ak47s. Anyone here see ak47s and rpgs....... unbelievable attitude of the US soldiers as well......





why???? Are you saying this thread will be deleted or closed....?
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CBA to read the whole thread but. Yea they quite clearly look like weapons to me, and I didn't have the opportunity to see from an Apaches instruments either.

Preemptive strike?

Ah, shame about the reporters :(
 
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Nickg said:
cold, detached would be a good start.

Cowboy-esque, kick-ass, whoopping USA Style is not cold, nor detached.
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Exactly. I would have liked it if the pilots were cool and detatched - i.e. professional - but they weren't.
 
All I can say is that of course any loss of life is saddening and horrific to the general public, but it's what occurs in wars, it's not unjust or illegal or despicable in the context of a war, it seemed threats where perceived, it fulfilled ROE, and even though borderline with the van, it was all done to neutralise the perceived threat.

I personally don't like seeing anyone killed, but when it comes to war, I know that you have to leave your morals at the door, or objectives will never be reached. As long as the armies do have reasonable ROE that are appropriate for the applicable theatre of operation, I have to accept that as long as these are followed, however unpleasant these things are part and parcel of it.
 
tedmaul said:
I have no experience of war myself, so can only comment based on books and documentaries i've read/watched, but their attitude is entirely what i expected of people that do what they do.

I can't see how you could be anything other than detached and cold towards your targets given what you have to do and what you have to see every single day. If they were sympathetic, empathetic or spent any time doubting what they had to do then they would put themselves and their colleagues in danger. They are trained to be this way imo.
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I agree, you'd have to be somewhat detached about it. But seemingly these guys are the opposite... They're practically getting a kick out of it, "Oh yeah, look at those dead b*****ds."

Most importantly, their job should surely dictate they need to be considered and cautious! They are flying deadly machines over a highly populated area, so need to be extremely careful when using force.

I would suggest the video we see, and the dialog we hear, does not demonstrate the professionalism I'd like to see from armed forces I endorse. To be honest I find the dialog, and the mindset it seems to show, terrifying.

I'd like to believe if a UK Apache group was in a similar circumstance, the outcome might be a little different. But most importantly the conduct, approach and consideration a lot different.
 
Seriously what are people expecting these people to behave like? They are in a war situation, they have to make a split second judgement, the press then get months/years to rip that decision to pieces, not having been in that situation either.

These people are trained to kill you cannot expect them to act in a way we would consider normal or even begin to understand.
 
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anticonscience said:
Seriously what are people expecting these people to behave like? They are in a war situation, they have to make a split second judgement, the press then get months/years to rip that decision to pieces, not having been in that situation either.

These people are trained to kill you cannot expect them to act in a way we would consider normal or even begin to understand.
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I/we are expecting:-
1- professional behaviour
2- calculated and considered action before pressing the fire button
3- not seemingly revelling in death and destruction (see 1 & 2)

I fully understand that anyone in this situation must detatch from the death they are no doubt dishing out. But that aside, if they are seemingly enjoying it, and worse still not considering/calculating what they are doing, then somethnig is wrong... Because that's when innocent people are even more likely to get killed...
 
Its a complete tragedy, I don't think anyone would deny it as such.

The attitude of the pilots could be considered awful, but remember they are in a stressful situation, in a dangerous environment, so it seems quite natural to break up the tension with light banter.
 
NeilFawcett said:
I agree, you'd have to be somewhat detached about it. But seemingly these guys are the opposite... They're practically getting a kick out of it, "Oh yeah, look at those dead b*****ds."

Most importantly, their job should surely dictate they need to be considered and cautious! They are flying deadly machines over a highly populated area, so need to be extremely careful when using force.

I would suggest the video we see, and the dialog we hear, does not demonstrate the professionalism I'd like to see from armed forces I endorse. To be honest I find the dialog, and the mindset it seems to show, terrifying.

I'd like to believe if a UK Apache group was in a similar circumstance, the outcome might be a little different. But most importantly the conduct, approach and consideration a lot different.
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Yeah! Let's train social worker's to fly war aircraft! :confused:

Dont try to take bloodlust away from soldiers, they are there to kill people. That is their "raison d'etre".
They act at the command of political masters, always have. And a soldier without bloodlust is no soldier at all.
 
ac1d1ty said:
Its a complete tragedy, I don't think anyone would deny it as such.

The attitude of the pilots could be considered awful, but remember they are in a stressful situation, in a dangerous environment, so it seems quite natural to break up the tension with light banter.
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I accept this but then the "haha he ran over a body" comment at the end of the video where a humvee charges in is completely unecessary.
 
NeilFawcett said:
I think there's two sides to this case.

At the end of the day these journalists were in an "at risk area" in a group armed with AK47s. So there was a chance of them being mistaken for 'targets'... The fact they were seen as targets and ultimately killed I think is sad, but just one of those things that can unfortunately happen in war.

HOWEVER, that said, I suspect most of us will find the banter of the pilots fairly sickening, seemingly taking a certain amount of glee in the carnage and killing of the individuals they could see on their monitors.

And WORSE STILL, then seemingly still pumped up enough to then want to attack the people-carrier which seemed (IMHO) to be of no threat at all, and was clearly there just to try and save any wounded. This seemed to be going too far, backed up by their overall demeanor throughout the whole matter...

Overall I found it pretty sickening to listen too!
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You say it well, after the initial attack when the van pulled up, I realised where it was going to lead and was pretty horrified when they opened fire on the van

It's horrific to see bodies flung about like that
 
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