Dawkins trying to arrest Pope Benedict Xvi

I'd expect Hitchens to try an undergraduate stunt like this, but I thought Dawkins was more mature. Anyway, if they really want to get noticed, why don't they team up with the many Christians who also want to see the Pope arrested?
Give me a break. :rolleyes: You really think their main motivation for this is publicity? Give. Me. A. Break. It may seem unbelievable to you, but the fact there's a leader, not only of a religion, but of a state and a government as well, offering safe haven to wanted felons, that covered up one of the largest scandals of child torture and rape is enough motivation for any to make a stand. This isn't being done for publicity. :rolleyes: I don't know where you've built your impression of Christopher Hitchens from, but you quite clearly have huge misconceptions about his conduct. Yes, he's very extreme, but he's one of the most reasoned and enlightened individuals alive today and to try and call him immature is a hypocrisy to end all hypocrisies.

I can't believe you'd deem prosecution against this vile primate 'immature'... Unbelievable.
 
As he has given the Vatican around half a years notice and spoken to the press about his intention, I can't help but come to the conclusion that his motivation is for publicity.

This event is huge, it's a symbol that their not safe. They can't hide behind their lies forever. This demands huge coverage, this is a HUGE step forward in my opinion. One less wall from the past that's keeping people in such an out dated mind set.
 
'must happen'
what on earth are you talking about?

'We can all agree something must happen'
Well I don't agree.

Does that mean it 'must not' happen?

im sorry I thought in the recent light of the scandals, and this:

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'.

The letter, 'concerning very grave sins', was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger.

It spells out to bishops the church's position on a number of matters ranging from celebrating the eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric 'with a minor below the age of 18 years'. Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric'.

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.
source

people would want some sort of 'investigation' or maybe 'justice' for the victims? Sorry is that terribly old fashioned of me? I didn't realise that men who commit such crimes are worthy of 'nothing' happing to them. Or that any individual person out there would want nothing to happen.
 
As he has given the Vatican around half a years notice and spoken to the press about his intention, I can't help but come to the conclusion that his motivation is for publicity.
Hey, you'll get no argument from me that publicity did enter into their conduct. Of course they're going to want people to hear about it, people to know about it, but to assume that their motivation from spawning the potential lawsuit is publicity it cynical and naive. I'm very familiar with both Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens (Christopher, more so), with their work, their writings and their beliefs. I know how passionate both of them are regarding this subject, and you pay them a profound insult (perhaps intentionally) by insinuating that their motivation for the lawsuit is anything other than genuine.
 
This event is huge, it's a symbol that their not safe. They can't hide behind their lies forever. This demands huge coverage, this is a HUGE step forward in my opinion. One less wall from the past that's keeping people in such an out dated mind set.

Don't get me wrong in that I find the Church's cover ups of child abuse quite sickening. The very organisation that should protect innocence has been active in covering up seemingly endemic abuse and it is an utter disgrace.

There should be a thorough investigation by an authority that is independent from the church and all of those responsible brought to book but that independent authority should not be Dawkins.

As for Pope Benedict, if he has been involved in cover ups then shame on him but even if he is responsible for them it is highly unlikely he will face any charges due to his position as head of over a billion Catholics and his tec hnicality as a head of state. Such is the fickle irony of politics.
 
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I very much want this to happen. It's incredible that no state has taken action against the catholic church for the cover-ups and child rape that it has committed around the world. As head of the church and directly involved in some of the cases, this man should be tried.
 
Hey, you'll get no argument from me that publicity did enter into their conduct. Of course they're going to want people to hear about it, people to know about it, but to assume that their motivation from spawning the potential lawsuit is publicity it cynical and naive. I'm very familiar with both Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens (Christopher, more so), with their work, their writings and their beliefs. I know how passionate both of them are regarding this subject, and you pay them a profound insult (perhaps intentionally) by insinuating that their motivation for the lawsuit is anything other than genuine.

Naffa, we merely have a difference of opinion on Messrs Dawkins and Hitchens.

Rightly or wrongly, I just don't buy what they say.
 
There should be a thorough investigation by an authority that is independant from the church and all of those responsible brought to book but that independent authority should not be a crank like Dawkins.

As for Pope Benedict, if he has been involved in cover ups then shame on him but even if he is responsible for them it is highly unlikely he will face any charges due to his position as head of over a billion Catholics and his tec hnicality as a head of state. Such is the fickle irony of politics.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to have contradicted yourself here. You say that you wish for an investigation to be carried out by an authority, but not from the likes of a 'crank' like Richard Dawkins, then you layout a case for why such an investigation would be impossible. Surely you've just given a fairly justifiable case as to why it has to be somebody like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins to do this?

You also seem to have swept all of the evidence and testimonies that are freely in the public domain, under the carpet.

Naffa, we merely have a difference of opinion on Messrs Dawkins and Hitchens.

Rightly or wrongly, I just don't buy what they say.
I'd say that the disagreement I pointed out in the first past of my post was slighty more than that. But fair enough, each to their own and what not.
 
Don't get me wrong in that I find the Church's cover ups of child abuse quite sickening. The very organisation that should protect innocence has been active in covering up seemingly endemic abuse and it is an utter disgrace.

There should be a thorough investigation by an authority that is independant from the church and all of those responsible brought to book but that independent authority should not be a crank like Dawkins.

As for Pope Benedict, if he has been involved in cover ups then shame on him but even if he is responsible for them it is highly unlikely he will face any charges due to his position as head of over a billion Catholics and his tec hnicality as a head of state. Such is the fickle irony of politics.

The fact is, no one has. Dawkins and Hitchins are both taking this upon themselves and I couldn't care less if they gain crap loads of publicity for it, or release a damn book about it. I believe they wish the church to account for it's transgressions, and we can only hope (And pray in some cases) that atleast one person recieves some taste of justice, this will atleast be a step forward in the right direction.

I agree he will probably come out of this, but I doubt unscathed. As I said earlier, this will hopefuly show them that they are not above the law, that they cannot continue protecting such sick behaviour and hide behind their 'untouchable' religious shield.
 
Please do correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to have contradicted yourself here. You say that you wish for an investigation to be carried out by an authority, but not from the likes of a 'crank' like Richard Dawkins, then you layout a case for why such an investigation would be impossible. Surely you've just given a fairly justifiable case as to why it has to be somebody like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins to do this?

I withdraw my crank comment, how's that ? :)

As for evidence in the public domain, there should surely be sufficient for the law enforcement community to act upon ? Why does Mr Dawkins need to effect that arrest and, dare I say it, make a fool of himself in the eyes of many.

You also seem to have swept all of the evidence and testimonies that are freely in the public domain, under the carpet.

Have I ? Where I have I said action should not be taken ? I just do not think that Dawkins attempting to arrest the Pope has much credibility. Do you seriously believe that his bodyguards and UK authorities will stand by and let this happen ?

I'd say that the disagreement I pointed out in the first past of my post was slighty more than that. But fair enough, each to their own and what not.

Exactly. Each to their own.
 
As for evidence in the public domain, there should surely be sufficient for the law enforcement community to act upon ? Why does Mr Dawkins need to effect that arrest and, dare I say it, make a fool of himself in the eyes of many.
That's the point, I believe there is enough evidence to in the public domain and the problem is just that, both the domestic law enforcement community and the international equivalent don't seem to be doing anything. Cardinal Law is one that springs to mind, as a wanted man that left Boston and is being sheltered by the Vatican. Are we to let this carry on? Are we to allow this Pope to offer refuge to wanted men? Are we to allow the untold misery and suffering caused by his hand go unpunished? I know you're not saying that it shouldn't, but I'm saying that I believe it will unless we get the likes of people such as Hitchens or Dawkins trying to do so.

Have I ? Where I have I said action should not be taken ? I just do not think that Dawkins attempting to arrest the Pope has much credibility. Do you seriously believe that his bodyguards and UK authorities will stand by and let this happen ?
I don't think anything will come of it to be honest, but I sincerely hope that it does. This could be deemed as something of a contradiction, however I don't believe it to be one, but even if publicity is all that comes from this (i.e. raising people's awareness of the legal side of the scandal), then it will still have served a purpose.
 
Give me a break. :rolleyes: You really think their main motivation for this is publicity? Give. Me. A. Break. It may seem unbelievable to you, but the fact there's a leader, not only of a religion, but of a state and a government as well, offering safe haven to wanted felons, that covered up one of the largest scandals of child torture and rape is enough motivation for any to make a stand. This isn't being done for publicity. :rolleyes: I don't know where you've built your impression of Christopher Hitchens from, but you quite clearly have huge misconceptions about his conduct. Yes, he's very extreme, but he's one of the most reasoned and enlightened individuals alive today and to try and call him immature is a hypocrisy to end all hypocrisies.

Of course it's being done for publicity. If it wasn't being done for publicity, they wouldn't be turning it into such a circus.

As Von Smaulhausen said:

As he has given the Vatican around half a years notice and spoken to the press about his intention, I can't help but come to the conclusion that his motivation is for publicity.

Having said that, I do believe that Hitchens and Dawkins have a genuine and perfectly valid objection to the Pope's cover-up of paedophilia within the church and that they are honestly motivated by moral concerns. I share their antipathy towards the Pope; I agree that he should be arrested and put on trial at the earliest opportunity. I believe he is guilty of a heinous crime (or crimes, depending on how you look at it).

I can't believe you'd deem prosecution against this vile primate 'immature'... Unbelievable.

I can't believe you wrote that when it doesn't even resemble anything I wrote. :confused: :rolleyes:

I do want to see the Pope prosecuted (and convicted, and jailed) but I don't believe that a photo op with a couple of celebrity atheists is the right way to go about it.
 
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Of course it's being done for publicity. If it wasn't being done for publicity, they wouldn't be turning it into such a circus.

This does not preclude the fact that it's also being done because Hitchens and Dawkins have a genuine and perfectly valid objection to the Pope's cover-up of paedophilia within the church. I share that objection and I agree that the Pope should be arrested and put on trial at the earliest opportunity. I believe he is guilty of a heinous crime (or crimes, dependong on how you look at it).
Ten points for presenting me with an unfalsifiable argument. On the one hand you're saying that it's being done for publicity, then you're saying that it's being done for publicity and to Ratzinger prosecuted. How am I supposed to retort to an argument that covers all of the bases? Either you believe Dawkins and Hitchens motivations for seeking legal advice on a possible prosecution is rooted in a desire for publicity, or a desire to see a criminal brought to justice.

I can't believe you wrote that when it doesn't even resemble anything I wrote. :confused: :rolleyes:
I suppose if you genuinely believe that their motivation was publicity and not to bring a criminal to justice, then that's a fair comment (I'm not trying to be sarcy here).

I do want to see the Pope prosecuted (and convicted, and jailed) but I don't believe that a photo op with a couple of celebrity atheists is the right way to go about it.
I would be inclined to agree if I thought there was another way to go about it.
 
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