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this is one of those threads where the op is so philosophical he ends up killing himself.
Do people see the same colours?
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I have thought about different peoples perception of colours before but it's frustrating to try and discuss with people because there is always somebody who doesnt understand. They will point at what i see as blue, and ask everybody what colour they see. Everybody, of course, says blue. "See, everyone sees the same colour" :/
Also, why be limited to a single sense? Couldn't my perception of "green" be the same as somebody else's perception of a taste like "sweet" or smell?
Are we really any different to computers/robots tho?
A computer may not see the whole "picture" but it doesnt know that it cant - it sees what it is used to seeing.
A robot in a maze will also have no idea that it isnt seeing the whole picture - it will see what it thinks is normal.
We may be the same? There may be a lot more to the world than that which we can see.
Also, why be limited to a single sense? Couldn't my perception of "green" be the same as somebody else's perception of a taste like "sweet" or smell?
Are we really any different to computers/robots tho?
A computer may not see the whole "picture" but it doesnt know that it cant - it sees what it is used to seeing.
A robot in a maze will also have no idea that it isnt seeing the whole picture - it will see what it thinks is normal.
We may be the same? There may be a lot more to the world than that which we can see.
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But the colours still relate to each other in exactly the same way. All those pictures show is that you can flip/rotate the spectrum.. The relations are exactly the same through and through.
Perception is all about relativity, those tests are specifically for the relativity of any given colour to others
But the colours still relate to each other in exactly the same way. All those pictures show is that you can flip/rotate the spectrum.. The relations are exactly the same through and through.
And this test shows that people don't see colours relative to a differently 'rotated' spectrum to one another how?
Because the spectrum doesn't "rotate" it is a series of wavelengths from high to low, not a circular effect.
I can see the next quesiton.. "so what if someone's spectrum is offset, and "my red" isn't at the bottom of the spectrum for them?" well, simply put, it isn't because of how the eye 'reads' these wavelengths. Some are able to see lower/higher of the spectrum, but not "different".
Surly everyone has slightly different chemical compositions that make up your eye? Wouldn't that alter colour slightly by filtering out the wavelengths? IE more water in the eye would filter out more red? Not to mention the brain, chemical compositions in the brain can alter colour I think, natural or otherwise. Just guessing here.
Also if you think about it colours we see are just an electrical/chemical signal in our brains so surely we all must see colours slightly different as our brains are different.
Also if you think about it colours we see are just an electrical/chemical signal in our brains so surely we all must see colours slightly different as our brains are different.
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Because the spectrum doesn't "rotate" it is a series of wavelengths from high to low, not a circular effect.
I can see the next quesiton.. "so what if someone's spectrum is offset, and "my red" isn't at the bottom of the spectrum for them?" well, simply put, it isn't because of how the eye 'reads' these wavelengths. Some are able to see lower/higher of the spectrum, but not "different".
Well okay, but I was rather talking about how the mind pictures it rather than how the eye physically detects it.
How the eye pictures it is intrinsically linked to how the mind pictures it. All the cones/rods in the retina do is turn wavelength into electrical current which is sent along the nerves.
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The visible light spectrum is very small, but also very well defined. There are a few people who can see in the ultra violet but this is due to not having a proper lens, and can be detrimental to the health of your eye over extended periods of time, hence why we can't see it to begin with.
People seeing completely the "wrong" colour is not likely, and Jestar is correct in saying those tests would spot that if it existed. However, those tests cannot spot if someone's perception of colours is skewed up or down or is more or less intense.
Take my two monitors. Currently they are perfectly calibrated and I see colours on both precisely the same way. However, if I made one monitor brighter, or added a bit more blue, I could still distinguish between colours and those tests would never pick up on that.
Or, take Person A and Person B. Person A sees white as a perfect 255,255,255. However, Person B sees white as 254,254,254. It is still white, very white in fact and Person A would be very hard pushed to tell the difference. Would the tests pick up on this very slight difference? I think not.
Even if everyone's eyes were perfectly identical, our brains really aren't. Any skew will be applied, so to speak, to all colours, so any dissimilarities and similarities will be the same, just slightly offset in some way. Seeing Red as Blue or Purple as Green or whatever suggests you have issues!
Take my two monitors. Currently they are perfectly calibrated and I see colours on both precisely the same way. However, if I made one monitor brighter, or added a bit more blue, I could still distinguish between colours and those tests would never pick up on that.
Or, take Person A and Person B. Person A sees white as a perfect 255,255,255. However, Person B sees white as 254,254,254. It is still white, very white in fact and Person A would be very hard pushed to tell the difference. Would the tests pick up on this very slight difference? I think not.
Even if everyone's eyes were perfectly identical, our brains really aren't. Any skew will be applied, so to speak, to all colours, so any dissimilarities and similarities will be the same, just slightly offset in some way. Seeing Red as Blue or Purple as Green or whatever suggests you have issues!
This has always interested me since a science teacher when I was at school mentioned this. But I find the idea always get confused when talking to people about it, what the op is taking about is perception. We are told the grass is green therefore the colour we see is green, yet I may see a completely different colour from you.
I often try and explain by relating to an object, if for example sombody had been told an apple is a banana all their lives, (without external influence) then they would believe the fruit we know as apple to be banana.
All very mind boggling!!
I often try and explain by relating to an object, if for example sombody had been told an apple is a banana all their lives, (without external influence) then they would believe the fruit we know as apple to be banana.
All very mind boggling!!
Well of course, but then a lot happens to it in the brain. Otherwise as I said earlier we'd see two completely separate fuzzy, jittery upside-down pictures full of dark spots dots. Our eyes are not perfect seeing devices and our brains make up for that in many ways.
Yup, but you are still stuck talking in 'objective' scientific terms again. Wavelengths and spectrums and electrical impulses etc.
None of this gets to the point of the op - that, given identical external stimulus, subjective experiences for individuals could actually be completely different. And it is impossible to prove otherwise, as you would be looking for objective means of explaining the subjective. That simply doesn't work...
Subjective it may be, but it is also wholly objective.
I understand perfectly the philosophical idea/question that the OP is asking, however I am also answering it - we are bio-mechanical beings with very, very, very, very, very similar genetics between us, and unless we have a defect (such as colour blindness) we all see the same colours, perhaps with negligible differences. There has been extensive testing to investigate this.
Oh yeah, I forgot, the magic pixie dust causes everyone's brain to act differently. Nevermind the extensive testing with Ishihara, MRI/CT scans and brain activity monitoring.
I understand perfectly the philosophical idea/question that the OP is asking, however I am also answering it - we are bio-mechanical beings with very, very, very, very, very similar genetics between us, and unless we have a defect (such as colour blindness) we all see the same colours, perhaps with negligible differences. There has been extensive testing to investigate this.
Oh yeah, I forgot, the magic pixie dust causes everyone's brain to act differently. Nevermind the extensive testing with Ishihara, MRI/CT scans and brain activity monitoring.
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Actually I did find this interesting link, basically a group of scientists managed to change the physical wavelength of colour that a group of people perceive as 'yellow' by making them wear contact lenses for a period of time - basically our minds have an 'autoadjust' feature which normalises what we see to what we know colours are supposed to be like. In fact going by this article, most of us physically detect the frequencies of light differently owing to differences in the distribution of cones that detect different wavelengths of light. If nothing else, it shows that we at the very least have the capacity to subjectively see images differently.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051026082313.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051026082313.htm
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Oh yeah, I forgot, the magic pixie dust causes everyone's brains to act differently. Nevermind the extensive testing with Ishihara, MRI/CT scans and brain activity monitoring.
I understand perfectly the philosophical idea/question that the OP is asking, however I am also answering it - we are bio-mechanical beings with very, very, very, very, very similar genetics between us, and unless we have a defect (such as colour blindness) we all see the same colours, perhaps with negligible differences. There has been extensive testing to investigate this.
The problem you still have is down to the fact that colour is an 'experience'. Science can tell you that the wavelength of red is whatever it is, but that doesn't actually inform you what red actually looks like. The colour red - what it looks like, its innate 'colour-ness' - is something you can only have a subjective experience of yourself.
So because colour only exists as an 'experience' within each persons mind, we can therefore say that in a sense it only 'exists' in the mind. And nobody else can see what subjective experience you have, i have, or anybody else has.
I'm not denying your science, or your tests or anything else you've written. But it simply doesn't get to the point of the op. So once again, it just seems that as much as you protest you actually don't understand the philosophical point here. As has been suggested earlier in the thread, Wittgenstein would be a really good place to start reading as he spent his entire life writing about this kind of stuff. You can also drive yourself a bit nuts reading about 'qualia' as well if the mood takes you...
